1st 5 years for K-State MBB coaches.

by Anon_the_younger on Feb 21, 2012 5:43 AM CST

More than one person has kvetched about HCFM this season, which made me curious as to how he compares to other K-State basketball coaches. So for the first five years of their careers, here is how K-State coaches since WWII have done. Some of the coaches were able to parlay the success on the court to league championships and national tournament success.

I'll continue to edit HCFM year 5 record and winning percentage as the season progresses. If my math is wrong, send me an email and I'll correct it after work.

Coach	Year 1	Year 2	Year 3	Year 4	Year 5	@K-State %
Gardner**	6-12	6-12	8-10			37%
Chili Cochrane	6-14					30%
Cliff Rock	7-15					31%
Fritz Knorr	10-13	4-20				30%
Gardner**	14-10	22-6	13-11	17-7	25-4	70%
		Final four, B7 champs		conf co-champs	NCAA Championship game, B7 Champs
Winter	11-10	11-10	17-8	15-8	22-5	65%
			NCAA West Regional Semifinals, B7 champs		Final Four, B7 Champs
Fizsimmons	14-12	20-8				63%
		NCAA Midwest Regional Semifinals, B8 champs
Hartman	11-15	19-9	23-5	19-8	20-9	66%
		NCAA Midwest Regional Final, B8 Champs	NCAA Midwest Regional Final, B8 Champs		NCAA East Regional Final
Kruger	20-11	25-9	19-11	17-15		59%
	NCAA West 2nd Round	NCAA Midwest Regional Final	NCAA East First Round	NCAA West First Round
Altman	13-15	16-14	19-11	20-14		55%
		NIT second round	NCAA Southeast First Round	NIT Final Four
Asbury	12-15	17-12	10-17	17-12	20-13	52%
		NCAA East First Round		NIT First Round
Wooldridge	11-18	13-16	13-17	14-14	17-12	47%

Huggins	23-12					66%
	NIT Second Round
Martin	21-12	22-12	29-8	23-11	21-9*	69%
	NCAA Midwest Second Round	NIT Second Round	NCAA West Regional Final	NCAA Southeast Third Round

*through 2/21 game.

**Gardner's first five years at K-State as head coach percentage is 53% but WWII was between the years as coach, so I calculated the periods as separate percentages.

Other Coaches

Coach	Year 1	Year 2	Year 3	Year 4	Year 5	Winning %
Bobby Knight	18-8	13-8	20-5	18-10	22-6	71%
Bill Self	6-21	10-17	18-9	21-7	19-12	53%
Mike Krzyzewski	11-14	20-8	19-9	14-11	9-17	55%
Tom Izzo	16-16	17-12	22-8	33-5	32-7	71%
Jim Boeheim	26-4	22-6	26-4	26-4	22-12	80%
Jim Calhoun	19-7	12-11	12-12	12-13	12-14	54%
Rick Pitino**	17-9	21-9	13-14	19-9	21-10	64%
Roy Williams	19-12	30-5	27-8	27-5	29-7	78%

**does not include partial year at Hawaii

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Comments

Thank you Anon

It isn’t Martin’s performance over the last five years that has bothered me so much, I know Martin’s done well in the past. It was/is the lack of improvement by this year’s team. I believe last year’s team was worse than this one when Jake and Curtis were suspended, even if this year’s team has the worse losses (goddamned Oklahoma).

But then last year’s team turned it on and became a team no one (but Colorado) wanted to face before losing to perhaps the worst matchup in the nation in the 2nd round of the tourney.

I’m still waiting on this team to turn it on as Martin’s teams usually seem to do, but they’re running out of time. The inconsistency, particularly from Will, gives me little hope that they will.

However, this is a rebuilding year (even if Martin’s constant complaining about a “young team” with two seniors and three juniors gets old), and getting ready for what should be quite a season next year has always been the goal.

"Don’t use foul or abusive language. Let everything you say be good and helpful, so that your words will be an encouragement to those who hear them." - Ephesians 4:29

by Sean T on Feb 21, 2012 8:40 AM CST reply actions

I think a lot rides on the game tonight.

Not from a hot seat direction, but from a “are they turning it on at the right moment” sort of proposition. If this game is down to the wire, or praise Jebus we win, I’d say we’ve turned it on. If we’re able to play a couple of the best teams in the country that close, with this team, I like our chances in March/…April? It comes down to seed, but there are only a few teams out there that scare me…Kansas being one, UK, …Michigan State is up there too. I don’t know why, but the Orange just don’t strike fear in my heart.

Anyway, it’s been said before, I think it’s the WAY we’ve lost that has me frustrated. We have been on the cusp of being so much more, but I’m ok with where we are.

When life hands you lemons, make grape juice. Let them wonder how the F*ck you did it.
Fight till Hell freezes over and then fight them on the ice.

by BlackCats on Feb 21, 2012 12:24 PM CST up reply actions

I'll only be okay with where we are if the Cats actually finish the regular season and beat ISU, A&M and OSU

I don’t expect a win tonight, so I’m really not worried. HOWEVER, if the Cats fall to ISU and/or OSU I’m going to be very cranky (but privately, for a change). I don’t know what to think about A&M. Yeah, they suck, but it’s on the road, they play good D, and they’re not coached by a cardboard cutout, they’ve had really bad luck, and they’ll probably be desperate.

"Don’t use foul or abusive language. Let everything you say be good and helpful, so that your words will be an encouragement to those who hear them." - Ephesians 4:29

by Sean T on Feb 21, 2012 12:44 PM CST up reply actions

Compelling numbers

I did not realize I happened to come to Kansas State during the tenure of one of the best basketball coaches the program has ever has. That’s pretty awesome.

by Ashley Dunkak on Feb 22, 2012 12:36 AM CST reply actions

Yeah, you got lucky

My first year was Wooly’s last. He was a nice enough guy, but it was an ugly season…

by jtarkman on Feb 22, 2012 11:05 AM CST up reply actions

I was here for end of Asbury/start of Wooly

not enjoyable times.

Asian girl white guy pumps inside the journalist.

by Jeremy Sharp on Feb 22, 2012 11:54 AM CST up reply actions

Can one of you older guys please explain what happened with Altman???

I’ve heard stories, but I was neither old enough, nor in to basketball at the time so I have no clue.

by jtarkman on Feb 22, 2012 11:10 AM CST reply actions

Look at Kruger then Altman

Kruger was K-State’s product under Hartman then returned to the Alma mater to coach including a Final 8 appearance. Then Kruger left and the bench was not in as good as shape as you would like.

So Altman did much worse his first year as a coach following a K-State legend, which soured the water for certain segments of the fan base. Even with his improvement there was unrest among certain segments, such that he was fighting an uphill battle.

That is the nutshell version.

The time for calm and rational discourse is past, now is the time for senseless bickering -Anonymous the Younger
bringonthecats.com, K-State's SBnation blog where I hang out during games.
"You are dead to me. Dead." -TB, purveyor of BOTC, in regards to one of my comments.
Emma Rocks!!!

by Anon_the_younger on Feb 22, 2012 12:30 PM CST up reply actions

Thats what I had heard, and had assumed

by jtarkman on Feb 22, 2012 12:56 PM CST up reply actions

Poor guy got run out of town.

Everyone knew he could coach but he couldn’t get us to the Tourney frequently enough and he did not recruit any glamorous recruits.

The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of strength, not a lack of knowledge, but rather in a lack of will. - Vince Lombardi

by Catbacker98 on Feb 23, 2012 10:23 PM CST up reply actions

To be fair to Asbury

he did take his team to the NIT in his fifth year

by jtarkman on Feb 22, 2012 11:12 AM CST reply actions

Only due to Askia Jones right?

The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of strength, not a lack of knowledge, but rather in a lack of will. - Vince Lombardi

by Catbacker98 on Feb 23, 2012 10:24 PM CST up reply actions

Askia was with Altman

by jtarkman on Feb 24, 2012 9:04 AM CST up reply actions

Ok so I am older than I think.

The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of strength, not a lack of knowledge, but rather in a lack of will. - Vince Lombardi

by Catbacker98 on Feb 24, 2012 12:02 PM CST up reply actions

Well Askia was on the last NCAA team

before Martin got here, and that NIT game where he set the points record was Altman’s last year.

by jtarkman on Feb 24, 2012 12:08 PM CST up reply actions

I was at that game...67 I think it was.

The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of strength, not a lack of knowledge, but rather in a lack of will. - Vince Lombardi

by Catbacker98 on Feb 24, 2012 7:24 PM CST up reply actions

What college are the "other coaches" section from?

When life hands you lemons, make grape juice. Let them wonder how the F*ck you did it.
Fight till Hell freezes over and then fight them on the ice.

by BlackCats on Feb 22, 2012 2:42 PM CST reply actions

If wikipedia is any indication

Knight—first 5 years at Army (first HC gig)
Self—first four years at ORU and first year at Tulsa (first two HC gigs)
Krzyzewski—first 5 years at Army (first HC gig)

by jtarkman on Feb 22, 2012 3:29 PM CST up reply actions

I picked three coaches who are considered good and am willing to take suggestions for others to look at

by Anon_the_younger on Feb 22, 2012 5:00 PM CST up reply actions

Ummm

Maybe Izzo, Boheim, Calhoun, Pitino, and Larry Williams

by jtarkman on Feb 22, 2012 5:19 PM CST up reply actions

I add those later tonight or in the morning.

by Anon_the_younger on Feb 22, 2012 5:26 PM CST up reply actions

okay, no rush

you asked for suggestions, and those were the first few names that came to mind

by jtarkman on Feb 22, 2012 5:37 PM CST up reply actions

It's hard to remember that this is Franks first gig

Wonder what those three first gig at a big boy school did.

Showing my ignorance…Indiana, Illinois and Duke…if those are the first big schools they coached at.

When life hands you lemons, make grape juice. Let them wonder how the F*ck you did it.
Fight till Hell freezes over and then fight them on the ice.

by BlackCats on Feb 22, 2012 8:45 PM CST up reply actions

You mean Roy Williams? or Larry Brown?

Bring On The Cats

by BracketCat on Feb 23, 2012 11:16 AM CST up reply actions

ugghhh...sorry, mutated two ku coaches into one

I meant Roy Williams, the guy at UNC now.

by jtarkman on Feb 23, 2012 12:22 PM CST up reply actions

Thanks Anon for the updates

what I learned from the list of “other” coaches:

1. There is a lot to be said about where you start you career, especially now. Boheim, Williams, and Izzo all have high winning percentages in their first years. All started at major programs and are either still there (Boheim and Izzo) or have left for a much greener pasture and home (Williams). Calhoun started at Northeastern, and it took him 9 years to make the NCAA (though one could argue, he was nearly their version of Jack Hartman).

2. Of the coaches on that list, the youngest is Bill Self at 49. Frank is already 45 and was coaching HS when these other guys were coaching college or NBA. I think that says alot about Frank’s perseverance and why many of us get so frustrated with him. We see Frank for his age, not his experience. When it comes to being a major college coach in any form, he is still a kid compared to these other guys, and even the younger coaches, when it comes to major basketball experience. There are times when he coaches this team as he would his HS team, especially the “Franking” of players. But the record shows he is a good coach, we just get to see the growing pains that will make him a great coach.

by jtarkman on Feb 24, 2012 9:21 AM CST reply actions

"We see Frank for his age, not his experience. When it comes to being a major college coach in any form, he is still a kid compared to these other guys, and even the younger coaches, when it comes to major basketball experience."

Agreed. He needs time, and he earns his time with the wins, but darned if he isn’t frustrating at times!

"Don’t use foul or abusive language. Let everything you say be good and helpful, so that your words will be an encouragement to those who hear them." - Ephesians 4:29

by Sean T on Feb 24, 2012 9:38 AM CST up reply actions

It really hit me how "young" Frank is when I started looking these guys up

Frank didn’t hit college till 2000, and that was an assistant at NorthEastern. 4 years there, then two at Cincinnati before joining Huggs here for the 07 season. Thats 7 years being an assistant, and only 3 at a major level.
For comparison, Bill Self spent 7 years as an assitant, but the first year was at KU, the next 6 at OSU before he got his first HC gig at Oral Roberts. Thats 7 years of major college (and Big 8) basketball, before going to a small school that he took to one (1!!!) NIT before moving on to Tulsa.
Frank has taken us to three (soon to be four) NCAA tournaments, and an NIT. Last coach to do that was Lon Kruger, who had already spent 4 years coaching at UTPA (doing nothing) before he was called home.
I just makes you realize, maybe we should give Frank a longer leash. He’s still learning and mistakes will come, but growing pains that involve multiple and consecutive post-season appearances are pretty easy to stomach when you look at the alternative.

by jtarkman on Feb 24, 2012 9:52 AM CST up reply actions