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In Response to CRFF: Why the Longhorn Network Won't Destroy College Football

About two weeks ago, while I was enjoying a third week in the Garden State, AUKingOState of the up-and-coming Oklahoma State blog, Cowboys Ride for Free, wrote a lengthy post positing that the the University of Texas' new TV network will destroy college football.

To be sure, allowing each school to keep its third-tier media rights to itself, for its own profit, is not my preferred model of conference revenue sharing. I've written extensively in the past that the Big 12 should follow the Big 10's model and share all conference revenue equally. However, UT's institutional philosophy seems to be that because it commands a greater TV presence than the other Big 12 schools, it will demand an unequal revenue share. The Texas approach stands in contrast to schools like Ohio State and Michigan, who share revenue equally within their conference, and Southern California, who recently signed over its third-tier media rights to the Pac-12 so the conference can launch a Pac-12 Network.

Texas would make all the other schools in the conference happier if it were willing to share equally conference revenue. But that's not the reason the conference nearly fell apart last year. Equal sharing would not have kept Nebraska, who benefited from the unequal revenue sharing, and Colorado, who wanted to go to the Pac-10 anyway and wanted to be damn sure it cut off Baylor's politicians in Austin. In the end, Texas' decision to stay in the Big 12 was based on its greed, and far from destroying college football, it saved the Big 12 and, in so doing, staved off the formation of superconferences.

Star-divide

So given all that, why does CRFF believe the Longhorn Network will destroy college football as we know it? As an initial matter, CRFF calls the decision by the Big 12's other schools to allow the creation of the Longhorn Network "foolish." Again, my preference would be that UT just play nice, but it's clear they won't. It's equally clear that they would have gone to the Pac-10 had they been permitted to keep their third-tier media rights. Therefore, of the alternatives available to UT, the Big 12 had one way to stand out, and it wasn't by pitching Stillwater and Lawrence and Manhattan and Ames and Columbia as exciting alternatives to Los Angeles, Seattle and Phoenix. Rather, it was by allowing UT to keep its third-tier media rights, and promising ever-increasing revenue for first- and second-tier media rights.

One theme I'm going to keep coming back to is that you always have to analyze these situations in terms of the alternatives. In a vacuum, I'd agree that it's foolish to allow UT to keep its third-tier media rights, because that's foregone revenue for the other schools. But the alternative to that concession, for K-State, KU, Missouri and Iowa State, was being in the Big East (if they were lucky) or the Mountain West. For Oklahoma State and Texas Tech, the situation was rosier, financially, in the Pac-10, but schools like OSU and Tech would be fish out of water with the folks on the west coast. 

So for the schools in the Big 12 with no good alternatives, the choice was either conceding third-tier rights to UT and getting more money off the TV contract renewals, or letting UT go to the Pac-10 and enter the brave new world of fighting to get into the Big East. That's a pretty easy calculus on my end, but K-State beats UT in everything, so maybe I'm biased.

Anyway, back to the specifics of CRFF's post. Later in the post, AUKingOState likens the current Big 12 to a holding company, with three greater partners and seven lesser partners. I prefer to call this something along the lines of a general partnership rather than a holding company, but that's semantics. I'll also note that legal partnerships often entail one partner who holds a greater stake in the company than the other partner(s). In any event, because the seven lesser partners have no opportunity to improve their standings, CRFF believes "resentment and jealousy are able to breed." This is probably true, but again, you have to consider the situation in terms of alternatives. If the jealous partners don't have any options, then who cares if they're discontent? They can be pissy all they want, but they're not going to leave unless they get an offer from the Big 10, Pac-10 or SEC.

So are there any schools that are likely to jump ship? Probably not, now that there are apparently stiff financial penalties for any school that leaves during the new TV contract. But let's put that aside for a minute. Who in the Big 12 has options? 

 

  • Texas: Any other conference would take them, but the Pac-10 and Big 10 aren't going to let them take their Longhorn Network with them. Academic and image concerns ensure Texas will never be in the SEC.
  • Texas A&M: With the new TV contract and the assurance of a high payout, the Aggies have no incentive to go anywhere. The Big 10 and Pac-10 won't want them without UT, and unless superconferences are inevitable, the SEC probably doesn't want them either.
  • Missouri: The Big 10 didn't call them last time, and there's no reason to think they would in the future.
  • Oklahoma State and Texas Tech: No other conference is interested in these schools unless Texas and/or Oklahoma are moving, too, and these schools aren't going anywhere.
  • K-State, KU, Iowa State, Baylor: LOL

 

The bottom line is that the seven lesser partners can be as jealous and butthurt as they want over not getting as much money as UT, OU and Texas A&M, but there really isn't much they can do about it, because the alternative is either the Big East or the Mountain West.

OK, so nobody is going anywhere. But is there an alternative? CRFF suggests there is.

If the members of the current Big 12 would have stood together and told Texas to cancel their network or leave, Texas would probably leave. And that, actually, would have been a good thing.

I can think of a lot of things that would have been, but "a good thing" is not among them. Back during conference realignment, if the conference had given Texas that ultimatum, do you think Dan Beebe would have been able to convince ESPN/ABC to honor its contract through 2015-16? I doubt it. Do you think the Big 12 would have been able to land a massive new TV contract for its second-tier rights? No. Texas Christian would not replace the Dallas market, and the University of Houston would not replace the Houston market. The Horned Frogs, in an undefeated season last year, filled an average of 42,466 seats at Amon G. Carter Stadium, which has a capacity of 44,358. Houston put an average of 31,278 fans in the stands at home last year, in a stadium that holds a woeful 32,000.

So that wraps up why the Longhorn Network is not a bad thing for the Big 12. But the point of CRFF's post was that the Longhorn Network will destroy college football. The reason CRFF believes the Longhorn Network will destroy college football is that eventually the UT will leave the Big 12 to become an independent, leading to the destruction of the Big 12 and the formation of superconferences.

But why would Texas go independent? The Longhorns have it as good as they're ever going to get it right now. Texas gets a conference to negotiate the TV deals for first- and second-tier rights, and the folks in Austin get a bigger share of that money than the other schools because they're on TV more often. And Texas gets to keep its third-tier rights, which wouldn't happen in any other conference that UT would consider joining. Beyond that, they have an automatic BCS berth, a conference that has traditionally been strong enough to ensure that an undefeated champion will play for a national title, and they don't have to worry about scheduling for long-season sports like basketball, and the non-revenue sports. Don't overlook that last point, as it would be an incredible headache to line up 35 teams to play in men's basketball, not to mention women's basketball and volleyball.

I hate to steal analogies, but in this case Frank the Tank is pretty close when he calls the Big 12 a maximum-security prison, where "[n]o one's getting out ... even if they want to very badly." Everyone in the Big 12 may not love the situation they've found themselves in, but there really isn't much any of them can do about it. We can talk all we want about how we wish the situation were different, but nobody is going to leave this conference, and in so doing, take a huge pay cut based on their frustration with Texas being a big bully.

Comment 152 comments  |  6 recs  | 

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Comments

Display:

"So are there any schools that are likely to jump ship? Probably not, now that there are apparently stiff financial penalties for any school that leaves during the new TV contract."

Love the article, but wanted to point out that it appears the penalties for leaving are the same as they were before. The TV revenues are just a lot high (hence the payout being higher).

by Texas Wahoo on Apr 21, 2011 10:32 AM CDT reply actions  

Is there a link for that?

I couldn’t find support for it anywhere. It’s been widely rumored that the exit penalties had been raised, but I couldn’t find anything to either support or refute that. Thanks for the info.

We'll carry the banner high!
Bring On The Cats

by TB on Apr 21, 2011 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

Here you go (from ESPN)

Withdrawal fees, league policies or the bylaws, have there been any changes to any of those since Nebraska and Colorado left?

No. The provisions that were in place last summer are still in place. Our job No. 1 was to get this contract in place. I think we will then be looking at a number of different aspects of the conference’s governance. It may be that none change, it may be that in light of the fact that the competition changed, the landscape changed, we re-evaluate and give attention to some of the other issues, but that would just be some of a number of issues that we will be evaluating.

http://espn.go.com/blog/big12/post/_/id/27845/still-lots-of-unanswered-questions-for-big-12

by Texas Wahoo on Apr 21, 2011 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

I've said it before, I think allowing UT to test the water with their own network could make the B12 the most powerful conference.

If this goes well, there is an independent team or two that the model would be an easy sell to in 2015. Imagine the payout of bringing Notre Dame and BYU into the B12 to renegotiate the First tier rights. Jokes about the Catholics vs Baptists vs Mormons aside, we could replace the TP in the new East-side restrooms with Hamiltons.

Is it a pipe dream? Maybe. But I wish the best for UT and the Longhorn Network. The better they do, the more realistic this gets. Right now, we are the only major conference to allow this. Where else are they going to go?

On a side note, I will stick by my original prediction that the Jerry World Empire will bring in ND and Ark to get us back to 12 and championship game.

When life hands you lemons, make grape juice. Let them wonder how the F*ck you did it.

by BlackCats on Apr 21, 2011 10:45 AM CDT reply actions  

^^agree with teh above^^

But I think the time table is at least the length of the other 12 team conferences next re negotiations for TV contracts. I think there will have to be quite a bit of proof that not having a conference championship game really puts the big12 at a financial disadvantage before they in true fashion are “reactive” instead of “proactive” to making this happen. So whenever the next round of Big 10, SEC contracts are re-upped I think will be the time to pay close attention.

But yea, I’m buying into the Jerryworld + Walton’s + Old rivalries being enough to work for the ‘Hawgs to say "yea I think we’ll fit in just fine" when ND announces they want to mimic what Texas does and join the conference.

"Nor yet in Dell?"

by GTcat on Apr 21, 2011 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

*the

fail.

"Nor yet in Dell?"

by GTcat on Apr 21, 2011 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

For second tier rights

Our ESPN/ABC contract is up in 2015/2016 school year for the first tier rights. At this time I don’t have to exaggerate much in saying, FOX is going to go ape shit trying to get this away from ESPN/ABC. They showed they want to be in the Big12 business with our pay day for second tier rights. It’s time for FOX to air regular season football on their “over air” network for the first time (They have some BCS but no regular season). FOX presents Big12 Saturday has a nice ring.

Now ESPN/ABC may just let it go to FOX and be content with the UT channel, but I kinda doubt it. They can double dip as it were by retaining first tier and UT…and BYU…and steal ND from ABC. Of course if ND doesn’t improve soon NBC may dump them.

They (ND) don’t play the marquee games consistently that they once did. When they stopped playing UM every year, and you know winning, ND lost a little shine. Now my dad would tell you there is no tarnish on Touchdown Jesus, but let’s be honest, how long can they string together mediocre seasons playing mediocre teams and expect to keep the NBC contract. Big12 football means big time games against big time names (at least as many as they’re playing now).

On what will likely be another billion dollar contract, adding ND and BYU (or Ark) would add that much more to the pot. FOX (not FSN) has the money and doesn’t have any other conference to bid on over air First tier rights until 2024. The move for our second tier shows there might be some serious interest come 2015/2016.

When life hands you lemons, make grape juice. Let them wonder how the F*ck you did it.

by BlackCats on Apr 21, 2011 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Steal ND from NBC, not ABC, you mean.

Which I think is likely. Why would NBC offer more money in a few years when that contract comes due for a declining product? NBC’s kind of a “niche” sports network anyway. ND would be much better served to follow the Texas model, IMO.

by BracketCat on Apr 21, 2011 7:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

when I first floated Notre Dame to the big 12

everyone thought I was nuts. I’m glad others are adding things up and seeing how if Notre Dame were to join a conference how the Big 12 actually is their most logical choice.

Personally, I don’t think the Big 12 expands any time soon, unless the Tier One deal requires it and pays enough to make it worth while.

When I write: Rockies Reporter (www.rockiesreporter.wordpress.com)
"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year"

by Redhawk on Apr 22, 2011 12:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

New Reality

I agree with TB, the current situation is the best possible scenario for both the forgotten 5 and UT. The new reality we find ourselves in is a power conference with unequal revenue sharing, but with a much bigger payout than before. Every other scenario would have been a nightmare for KSU and potentially for other schools as well.

The only thing I don’t buy is ND interested in a Texas-esque deal. I just don’t see them joining a conference. I could see Arkansas or BYU though.

by ElephantHouse on Apr 21, 2011 12:27 PM CDT reply actions  

Thank you for your analysis TB

"If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse." - Mark Twain

by Sean T on Apr 21, 2011 1:34 PM CDT reply actions  

Great post, TB

I too read the CRFF post and didn’t buy into the rationale. I think the Big-12 is actually in a pretty strong position going forward and if what keeps Texas in the conference (and thus the conference together) is 3rd-tier TV rights, let ‘em have ’em I say. The Forgotten 5 need Texas (and Oklahoma) more than the other way around, but still serve a purpose by allowing them to fill out their schedule with geographically-sensible conference games and – in most years – wins.
I’m sorry, but Austin-to-Pullman, WA or Corvallis, OR for a women’s volleyball game on an annual basis makes little sense. Ditto Austin-to-East Lansing or Happy Valley. Texas got what it wanted, and (IMHO) so did Oklahoma. Texas was better off where they have natural rivalries and shorter travel distances. I have no love for UT, but people need to stop blaming them for wanting to maximize their revenues and taking advantage of their position. By no means does bargaining their 3rd Tier TV rights make them a bad partner, just a business one.
The only schools I can see “unhappy” to be locked into the Big-12 ala Frank The Tank’s take are Texas Tech, Missouri (although more TV money heals a lot of wounds) and maybe Okie State and Texas A&M (or at least the Aggie fan base). The Forgotten 5 were able to breathe a huge sigh of relief (I know I did last June when the conference held together) and cash in on a safe landing spot that virtually every college football media pundit was marking as Ground Zero for the inevitable seismic shift that the “SuperConference” push would invoke. Texas and Oklahoma I see as just as happy to have a conference filled with decades-old rivals that they are used to dominating kept in place.
As for BlackCats take on expansion, I think a lot what he says makes sense but I don’t see ND taking the Big-12 plunge unless the ridiculous SuperConference talk heats up for real next time. BYU makes the most sense, and although Arkansas would be a close second it would take a lot to pry an SEC school away and I don’t think the Big-12 wants to start a war with that conference. I like K.Scott’s Arizona-ASU expansion hypothesis, but with new PAC-12 TV deals coming up I’m starting to sour on that idea being as realistic.

by CT-K-Stater on Apr 21, 2011 7:49 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

I would actually say the only schools that are really hurt and want out would be the A&M fan base who want out of UT’s shadow. (and Missouri to the Big 10 I guess, but any school would want to go to the Big 10 except UT)

When I write: Rockies Reporter (www.rockiesreporter.wordpress.com)
"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year"

by Redhawk on Apr 22, 2011 12:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

I would agree except

last June when the conference was saved there was a lot of whining from Texas Tech fans who felt a lack of respect despite improving facilities, academics and, of course, solid on-field football performance for a decade now. They seemed to feel – justly I suppose – still in the shadow of A&M and Texas, much like Okie State does with OU. From what I read – if the media is to be believed, and after the drama of last summer when they were wrong on a lot of things I’m not so sure they are – the administrations and ADs at both OSU and TTU had their bags all packed and were rarin’ to go to the Pac-16.
Both TTU and Okie State seemed sensitive to the fact that they were only being invited to the “Pac-16” as a means to appease state politicians in order to grease OU and Texas’ moves westward and provide some geographically-sensible rivals for OU and Texas in the new conference. The gist of it was that these rationales fueled their invites – not those schools’ own merits. So understandably there was some angst among the fans that the reality was that they had limited options and were tied to their in-state big brothers. I’m sure now with the money signs improving and a renewed sense of commitment that those feelings have softened a bit. Besides, fans can feel the way they do but administrators have to deal in realities.

by CT-K-Stater on Apr 22, 2011 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

Nope

As a Texas Tech fan I can say that “money signs” haven’t improved my feelings at all evidenced by the fact that just seeing Beebe’s idiotic face at the top of this article fills me with rage. Here’s three reasons why the Longhorn network is TERRIBLE for the conference:
#1. It gives UT a competitive advantage. UT gets more exposure, they get a forum to showcase their athletes (which in turn will help them recruit even more) and (of course) it is a HUGE source of revenue. All of these things are problems for the health and stability of a conference which is supposed to be a partnership of the member schools.
#2. It highlights the inequality of the conference at ALL levels. The reason I hate Dan Beebe at this moment more than even the ridiculously broken BCS is because you may as well just put Bill Powers or Mack Brown in charge of the conference. If you were a fan of the Orlando Magic, how beneficial would you think it if every decision David Stern made DIRECTLY benefited the LA Lakers. Suppose tomorrow he stated that a new salary cap had been implemented that caps the teams of the league at $60 million, except the Lakers can pay up to $100 million. The other teams aren’t going to go anywhere, there’s no “better” league than the NBA, but is that good for the league?
To use another analogy: 3 years ago, the Green Bay Packers said no one player is bigger than the team. They told Favre he could compete for the QB job or he could retire and GTFO. Analysts said this was the stupidest move ever because Favre was a legend and he should be able to do what he wanted, etc. At the same time, Minnesota had an up and coming RB and a team that was just coming into it’s own, a team that with the right leader could have been great for years to come. One of those teams won the Super Bowl and the other is currently in disarray. Which leads to my final point…
#3. If you put all your eggs in one basket, they all get broken if it drops. Much as Longhorns might want to think otherwise, UT is not immortal in college football terms. They’re a major player, they draw well, but if they go on a losing streak, they’ll fall too. You need look no further than: Notre Dame, Miami, Michigan, etc. Those are still “name” brand schools, and they still draw attention and IF they recover, they’ll have national identity should they get back on top, but while they’re down, they’re down. Miami was one of the top schools, a school doing really well a decade ago. But now they’re down and their past history isn’t doing a lot for the BigEast. Notre Dame has a national audience, but that’s not doing much for NBC these days. And Michigan is just lucky it’s in the Big10 right now (not saying the Big10 should or would drop them, but if they were in the ACC or Big East the conference wouldn’t see great benefit from the school right now). The point being, Texas brings exposure and dollars… right now. But if we (any schools not named UT or OU) are seen as “lesser” members of the conference, then that hurts all of us should UT experience “lean” years.

Bonus: More than anything, as a Texas Tech fan, I hate what happened with the conference realignment because (selfishly) we’re more likely to be left without a seat now, I admit it. That’s why I say just rip the band-aid off and get it over with. The problem is that for all the talk of improving things this made things WORSE. Texas is no more tied to the conference than they were before. Consider:
1) If the Pac-12 or Big-10 want the UT (Texas) market badly enough, they’ll swallow down the crap that is the UT network OR give UT a major concession in dollars or something to make it happen (since the network EXISTS now, UT has a big chip to bargain with). And if you think those conference WON’T talk to UT and have no intention of “allowing” that network to stand in a deal, EVERYONE thought the big “catch” for the Big10 was Notre Dame, and from all reports, the big stopper on THAT deal was NOT that Notre Dame already had their OWN TV deals with NBC, but that Notre Dame CHOSE not to make the deal.
2) UT can go independent. I personally think this is a terrible idea and would be bad for the Longhorns long term, but in the short term, they’d be fine. They could play some cream puffs, keep the OU game and the morons in the media (especially the ones at ESPN who have a vested interest) would still bend over to give them a Notre Dame-esque arrangement to get into the BCS and/or National Championship game. Heck, in the SHORT term, it might even be better for them, since if they can win 9-10 games against bottom feeders, and have the one game scheduled against OU, they’ll get voted into a BCS game because of the ridiculous inequality that is the BCS.
3) Even if they plan to stay, they can always PRETEND they won’t if only to flex their muscles and prove to the “minions” who runs the conference. This sham of a conference is ridiculous, and honestly, I think any school (not named UT or OU) would debatably be better going to the Mountain West RIGHT NOW. In the next year or two, there would be no tangible benefit, but long term, I think the room to grow, the added exposure, and the inevitable explosion of the mockery that is the Big12 will allow any teams outside the current conference to be better positioned to move forward in the aftermath. All teams that “sit tight” need to improve NOW and position for the future.

by HeeroTX on Apr 22, 2011 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

" If you were a fan of the Orlando Magic, how beneficial would you think it if every decision David Stern made DIRECTLY benefited the LA Lakers."

You are aware that the LA Lakers were just allowed to sign a huge local TV rights deal which dwarfs all of the other teams? I didn’t see Stern march in and tell them they have to agree to sign the same deal as the Kings.

by Texas Wahoo on Apr 22, 2011 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

in response...

Are you aware that every year from 1996 to 2006 the broadcast network (NBC/ABC) NBA regular season Nielsen Ratings have declined or remained flat? (I assume most games are only on cable now (ESPN, TNT))

NBA Nielsen Ratings
1996 = 5.0
2006 = 2.2

I would also say, that even ignoring “viewers”, this is provably bad for the competitive balance, in the same way that the Yankees dominant position is bad for MLB.

by HeeroTX on Apr 22, 2011 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

When one team is allowed to put itself above the others, it skews the playing field. Whether the fans/supporters of that team want to admit it or not, it bothers the fans of the other teams. (how many times do you hear “Kobe/LeBron/Wade etc. get all the calls” or about how David Stern WANTS the teams in Boston/New York/LA to be good?) In the short term, that can give the league a boost because the small markets maintain and the big market increases interest. In the LONG TERM this is terrible because the small markets drop off when they see they’re not playing a “fair” game and the big markets have LOTS of other distractions when their team is not the champion.

Local broadcast rights are another way for LOCAL boosters to funnel money into a school or to give “benefits” to a player. Consider, if there’s a STRONG “conference TV network”, then one school can’t say “you’ll be on TV x times a week” and have it mean anything more than any other school. But if a school DOES have it’s own network, they CAN make the pitch that they can give a recruit more TV time. And if you have a big alumni base, you can even “spoof” just how much stronger your TV presence is.

by HeeroTX on Apr 22, 2011 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

I pretty much agree

But the real fault of all of this lies with the “minions”, not with Texas. We let Texas get away with this stuff because we are afraid.

To quote Shakespeare;
“The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
But in ourselves, that we are underlings.”

Forward into Battle

by ChrisP Wildcat on Apr 22, 2011 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

Sure, UT now has a recruiting edge, but they always have

And what exactly has that won them? A single national title and two conference titles. Big deal.

The forgotten 5 are much better in the new big 12 than in the old big 12. The mountain west would kill any hopes of TT, KU, KSU, ISU etc competing nationally in football, and kill all but KU in bball.

"If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse." - Mark Twain

by Sean T on Apr 22, 2011 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions  

MWC

It didn’t hurt Utah or TCU. You can reply that neither of those teams played in a National championship, my rebuttal would be:
-Neither have any of the teams you listed and Utah and TCU have played in BCS games (granted: so has Kansas, who BENEFITED from not playing: UT, OU or TTU)

by HeeroTX on Apr 22, 2011 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

The problem is...

…those schools were already in the MWC, and thus their budgets were adjusted to the MWC. If you look at how little revenue the MWC distributes relative to the Big 12, you’ll see where the problem lies. Big 12 schools may not be able to meet their payroll for head coaches if they received what MWC schools receive, to say nothing of ongoing facilities enhancements.

We'll carry the banner high!
Bring On The Cats

by TB on Apr 22, 2011 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

That's assuming that the MWC would continue to generate the same revenue interest

If you added some more quality teams to the conference, I’m sure it would get better TV contracts.

Forward into Battle

by ChrisP Wildcat on Apr 22, 2011 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

exactly

If you add 4 teams from the Big 12 (even if they’re not UT and/or OU) you can gain TV market and prowess. PLUS losing 4 teams would effectively kill the Big12 opening up a BCS or killing the BCS structure (since the Big East and ACC aren’t the powers they were either). If nothing else, strong performances in the first few years could position the “jumpers” to be future Utahs and TCUs. (ripe to be picked by current BCS conferences.

The one POSSIBLE/probable flaw, is destroying the Big12 COULD accelerate the creation of a “Champions League”. College football is headed to one of two results, EITHER we’ll get a playoff within ten years (even if it’s only a 4 team playoff) OR the media members will just drop the sham and create a system clearly opening play for the “top” programs (Florida, Ohio State, Okla. UT, USC, Notre Dame, etc.).
(In this scenario, “top” means “bring eyeballs” not “best in any given year”, the “brings eyeballs” factor is why the big programs can always make the BCS National Championship game no matter who they played if they’re undefeated)

by HeeroTX on Apr 22, 2011 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

Not to mention

If we had jumped ship back when all this started, the Mountain West was wildly talked about as getting a BCS spot because of the play of TCU and Utah and with the addition of Boisie State. If they had added TT, KU, KSU, ISU etc, then it would be pretty hard to deny them a spot at the BCS table.

Forward into Battle

by ChrisP Wildcat on Apr 22, 2011 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

I appreciate your response HeeroTX, but

the MWC doesn’t have an automatic BCS tie-in, and its TV revenue is substantially less than what the non-UT/OU schools in the Big-12 already make and will make in the future. The MWC is also being diminished by the exodus of Utah, BYU and TCU. So the Forgotten 5, plus – if I read you correctly – A&M, Okie State and TTU should all jump ship for the MWC? I’m not sure I agree with that logic even if I find your other arguments merit-based. Your looking at a conference with a broad geographic footprint but little TV base. Plus, all the local politics involved with splitting Texas and Oklahoma schools apart would rear their ugly head again.
I get the angst with being in the same cage with the 10,000lb gorilla and as I said at the outset I’m not fan of UT. But every conference has its top feeders and bottom feeders. Sure, the Big-10 and SEC share TV revenue equally, but ask Florida or Alabama if they truly are fine with Vanderbilt and Miss.St. getting the same slice of the pie as they do.

by CT-K-Stater on Apr 22, 2011 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

That exodus happened after the realignment episode finished

You think Utah and TCU would have left if they had added KSU, KU, Mizzou, ISU and Baylor? I’m pretty sure we could have commanded a larger contract from the networks if we had joined the MWC. But maybe I am wrong.

Forward into Battle

by ChrisP Wildcat on Apr 22, 2011 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

That's a fair point, but

we have to assume that the Forgotten 5 would have pursued the MWC over the Big East (even if we may shudder at the thought of KSU having to play football in the Big Least). Then there was the possibility – mentioned by President Schultz shortly after the league was ‘saved’ – about forming another conference from the remnants of the Big-12. For schools with huge athletic budgets like Texas perhaps travel isn’t weighed as great a concern as for others, but on the Baylor/K-State/ISU/Kansas athletic budgets I cannot imagine the administrators would be thrilled with flying their athletes to distant locales on a regular, conference-based basis. The two important things to remember with the MWC – and I personally am a fan of the conference and think it has proven itself far more deserving of a BCS tie-in than the Big Least – are 1) it has no automatic BCS tie-in, and 2) it commands far fewer TV sets than its broad geographic footprint would indicate. Adding ISU, KU and K-State with their small populations wouldn’t do much to change that equation. Mizzou would help some, but Baylor hardly commands the Texas tv market.

by CT-K-Stater on Apr 22, 2011 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

agree with ChrisP

Plus, Beebe (HATE!!!!!) was able to raise more money because the networks thought it was STILL a better deal. There’s only two ways that can be true (unless you just want to say the TV network people are insanely short-sighted, WHICH I will grant is a possibility):
#1. Networks make stupidly mad bank on regional excitement with Big12 games and Pac12 games kept as is. This is POSSIBLE, but unlikely since so many people seem to THINK that “marquee matchups” between teams like USC and UT will make crazy money, and supposedly the “outcast” teams don’t draw many viewers now.
#2. Big12 “castoffs” would’ve gone to another (or event multiple) conference like the MWC, WAC or ConferenceUSA, putting those conferences in a stronger position to bargain for better TV contracts. Would it have been better than the contract that the Big12 has right now for those teams, maybe maybe not (likely not) BUT long term, who can say. To use made up numbers. If KSU makes $10mil on TV deal now and would have made $7mil in an improved MWC, maybe that doesn’t look great. But what if KSU makes $10mil on TV deal now and $15mil on other sources due to general feel of the program and could make $7mil on TV deal in MWC plus $25mil on other sources due to excitement about the program? TV isn’t the only source of income (altho, granted it is a big one) and in this case it could DEFINITELY be better to be a “big fish in a small pond” than a small fish in the UT whale.

(as an addendum to my points about the TV deal, you CAN’T try to tell me that the Pac16 as a single BCS conference would’ve commanded more money than two separate BCS conferences. You CAN argue that keeping the Big12 and Pac12 separate helps maintain the BCS, which I do NOT think is a good thing for smaller schools)

by HeeroTX on Apr 22, 2011 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

So I'm guessing

that Beebe isn’t on your Christmas Card list, no? :)

by CT-K-Stater on Apr 22, 2011 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

as an aside

Beebe is a weasel and while I understand that he’s looking out for his JOB it’s moronic how much he kowtows to Texas at the expense of the overall league. Nothing sums it up better than this quote in response to the teams (excluding UT and OU) forming a network for third tier content:

Well, that’s something they’re going to have to decide. It wouldn’t be a Big 12 network, per se, because it wouldn’t have all the Big 12 schools, but for a third-tier platform for those institutions to look at where they can have games and have a partner that might look at or want to do a lot of the content, then that’s a high possibility.

So, the CONFERENCE commissioner is basically saying “ya’ll are on your own, UT is fine, deal with your own problems” to the rest of the league. And if you want to call your little network the “BigXII network”, just wanted to throw a reminder to the media that it’s not, since UT and OU aren’t on it. That’s our CONFERENCE COMMISSIONER. If that were UT president Bill Powers, it’d make perfect sense since HIS job is to promote and strengthen UT, but this is the BigXII conference commissioner saying all the members are on their own and any network grouping they form is incomplete because Texas ain’t in it.

by HeeroTX on Apr 22, 2011 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Again, good point

and your love for Beebe shines through in every post :)

by CT-K-Stater on Apr 22, 2011 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

What the hell do you WANT him to do?!?

If he DOESN’T “kowtow to Texas”, and they leave and go to the Pac 10, what then? Sorry for the frustration, I’m just getting REALLY tired of all the bitching and moaning about Texas. I don’t like them. I wish that the Big 8 had never bent over for them to begin with, but it is what it is now. The sooner we all deal with that, the better off everyone will be.

And for the record, Beebe’s negotiating just substantially increased your school’s athletic budget. Feel free to write the school an angry letter detailing how they shouldn’t accept the money because you think Beebe’s a prick.

Innovators look at the same thing as everyone else, yet see something different.

by K. Scott Bailey on Apr 22, 2011 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

read below

I thought we should’ve jumped to another conference (best we could get) immediately after the Pac16 deal fell apart. I’ll take the money now (not my decision) but the deal is terrible and the conference is NOT stable.

Beebe should’ve made Texas deal with an equitable share or let the conference explode (since it will anyway). Barring that, he should’ve hung on to Nebraska and Colorado. As it is now, how can ANY member not named Texas feel that this is a good league, considering we (as a conference) live or die by the whims of UT. As a fan of a school that is NOT UT, I’d rather see lower TV deal and work like hell to raise donations than support an arrangement that lets UT sign a $300mil all to themselves TV deal.

by HeeroTX on Apr 22, 2011 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

He couldn't have hung on to Nebraska and Colorado.

They were going to leave. There is nothing the Big XII could have done to keep them here.

by Texas Wahoo on Apr 22, 2011 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Or it shows that CU was not a good fit for the conference.

They’ve had their eyes on the Pac 10 since before the Big XII was formed.

by Texas Wahoo on Apr 22, 2011 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Or it shows

how you just want a scapegoat for you school not having as much clout as you think they should.

Innovators look at the same thing as everyone else, yet see something different.

by K. Scott Bailey on Apr 22, 2011 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

If one school is able to dictate all the terms of operations within a conference, what power does the conference commissioner have?

by HeeroTX on Apr 22, 2011 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

One school is not able to do that.

It needs three other schools to agree with it.

by Texas Wahoo on Apr 22, 2011 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

UT can bully Iowa State and Baylor into agreeing with anything. And for now, Oklahoma is also seen as a “big boy” and has the same bully powers within conference as Texas, so it’ll go along with whatever Texas wants. There’s your 3. (others will also fall in line for similar reasons, but you can easily get those 3)

by HeeroTX on Apr 22, 2011 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

If I’m your boss in a recession and I tell you you can either work 80 hours a week or be fired, are you “agreeing” with me if you choose not to be fired?

by HeeroTX on Apr 22, 2011 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

A more apt analogy:

If I’m your coworker in a recession and I tell you you can either work 80 hours a week or I’m leaving to work at a different company, because you’re not pulling your own weight right now.

by Texas Wahoo on Apr 22, 2011 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

spiraling off

To follow your analogy, it must be assumed up front that the company will fold if you leave (since EVERYONE knows that the Big12 would’ve folded if Texas had left). If your leaving has no impact on me, then why do I care if you leave? And if your departure will cost me my job, but I have no way to impact your position, how are you NOT dictating the terms? (which is what I said Texas did)

by HeeroTX on Apr 22, 2011 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

But the conference will only fold because the other schools agreed to leave with Texas.

If Texas was leaving alone for the Pac 10 – the Big XII would still be around. It’s the fact that Tech/A&M/OU/OSU were going along too that made it so the Big XII would fold.

by Texas Wahoo on Apr 22, 2011 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

I’m as Red a Raider as there is, but there is no magical candy land where I believe that the BigXII survives once Texas leaves. Claiming that the BigXII (especially now that Nebraska and Colorado are gone) survives the loss of Texas is insane.

by HeeroTX on Apr 22, 2011 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

I generally think it would fail because the Texas legislature would make sure Tech and A&M were leaving too.

But if just Texas left, the Big XII could add TCU and BYU and be just fine. It wouldn’t get the same dollar figures as it gets now, but it certainly would get more than the Mountain West.

by Texas Wahoo on Apr 22, 2011 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

If Texas left, Oklahoma would leave with them, which is also why they stayed. Without the two “marquee” schools, why is the BigXII “better” than the MWC?

But even if Oklahoma would stay (lets say Texas went independent), TCU does not equal Texas when negotiating TV contract, nor does BYU nor do the two combined.

by HeeroTX on Apr 22, 2011 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

so answer this:

IF the conference could survive the loss of Texas (a point I do not agree with), WHY does Texas have such a sweetheart deal? The only two LOGICAL reasons are:
-Texas has the power to impose their will
-Beebe is a weak commissioner who can’t do anything for the other members despite having enough leverage

IF Beebe is NOT a weak commissioner and Texas does NOT have the power to dictate it’s terms, then the only other explanation is Beebe is a good commissioner who is totally in the tank for UT, which has the same net result on schools not named UT.

by HeeroTX on Apr 22, 2011 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

OR the deal is not as sweetheart as you make it out to be.

It just looks like that because Texas is the only one who has monotized its third tier righst up to this point. OU is doing so, but hasn’t struck a deal yet. The rest of the teams prefer a joint deal – which still needs to be negotiated.

by Texas Wahoo on Apr 22, 2011 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ignoring the $300mil windfall since (as you noted, that’s what Texas did with third tier, all other conferences bundle those, but whatever)…

Going with 2007 numbers since that’s what I can find, but since we’ve been in a contract that has annual payouts defined, for this purpose, it should be ok:
http://espn.go.com/blog/big12/post/_/id/13032/unequal-revenue-sharing-will-remain
in 2007 UT earned $10.2 mil in tv revenue. The old contract paid out about $20mil to the conference, assuming splits of that money follow the percentages presented in overall tv revenue from the link above, Texas earned about $2mil annually (2nd tier) or a 20% premium off the “base” (for reference, Missouri as the #6 earner earned almost exactly the “base”)

From all reports, (and A&M’s protestations) the “top 3” were promised minimums of $20mil. The new deal gives annual payout of $90mil. ASSUMING all else stays equal at present (since the 1st tier deal isn’t up for negotiation yet) Texas (assuming their percentage holds) stands to make $10.8mil in the new 2nd tier deal, combined with their previous $8.2mil ($10.3mil – $2mil from 2nd tier) that gives Texas a net take of $19mil. Assuming the agreement holds, $1mil will be needed to “even up”. PRETENDING for a moment that A&M and OU were STARTING from the same base as Texas (they are not) that’s another $2mil that needs to be found to take the “top 3” to $20mil apiece.

So, at minimum, all other schools stand to LOSE ~$425k off the base just to even up the others. In this scenario, Texas stands to earn $11.8mil in the new conference vs. Mizzou making approx $8.5mil. How is that NOT a sweetheart deal? (considering Mizzou is “mid-tier” in the conference, not bottom like ISU or Baylor) Considering that payout and Texas getting to keep 3rd tier which the other major conferences would NOT have allowed, how could Texas have done any better?

by HeeroTX on Apr 22, 2011 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

A few points:

Here are more recent number – OU actually earned more than than UT in 2008-2009. (http://espn.go.com/blog/big12/post/_/id/13547/2008-09-conference-revenue-numbers-are-in)

Also, UT and OU have said they are not demanding 20 million and will take whatever the Big XII bylaws say they get.

If this is a sweetheart deal for Texas, it was negotiated before Dan Beebe was the commissioner in 1996 at the formation of the league. The revenue sharing agreement hasn’t been changed since then.

by Texas Wahoo on Apr 22, 2011 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

something to note

I did not look at the numbers for Big10 before, but WOW. Texas made $300mil over ten years off their network, and that’s eyepopping, and huge for one school, but the Big10 is projected to make $2.8BILLION off the Big10 network over 25 years (meaning 1.12 BILLION over a ten year span) Even splitting with 12 teams, that’s $93mil per team over 10 years (or 233 per team over 25 yrs).

by HeeroTX on Apr 22, 2011 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Have you actually looked at the new TV numbers for the Big 12?

Innovators look at the same thing as everyone else, yet see something different.

by K. Scott Bailey on Apr 22, 2011 7:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

I didn’t say he demanded it, I said he didn’t work to “fix” it.

by HeeroTX on Apr 22, 2011 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

HeeroTX isn't logical at all.

I’m almost to the point of simply ignoring what he posts. He’s just in “pissed off and not going to take it” mode now.

Innovators look at the same thing as everyone else, yet see something different.

by K. Scott Bailey on Apr 22, 2011 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

He's not the one who is coming across as pissed off

Even if this particular argument (about Beebe and the other schools) isn’t the most logical of the ones he’s made.

Forward into Battle

by ChrisP Wildcat on Apr 22, 2011 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Actually, I grant that I’m incredibly frustrated with Beebe, but despite K. Scott’s opinion, I THINK my point is valid. Telling me Texas DOES have all the power and there’s nothing any of the other schools can do does not invalidate the point that Beebe is a weak/impotent conference commisioner.

by HeeroTX on Apr 22, 2011 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

In large part...

…because Beebe got ESPN/ABC to guarantee they would honor their commitment, got Fox’s word that the price would be right in 2011, and decided it was worth letting schools keep their third-tier rights if it meant Texas stayed in the league.

We'll carry the banner high!
Bring On The Cats

by TB on Apr 23, 2011 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

He comes across as incredibly pissed off.

And for no other reason than that the college sports world doesn’t work the way he wishes it did.

Innovators look at the same thing as everyone else, yet see something different.

by K. Scott Bailey on Apr 22, 2011 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

Most of the time you do as well.

"I refuse to write on the chalkboard because I refuse to rock chalk, at all times." -The Forum
The user formerly known as EMAWrising

by MeatGeek on Apr 23, 2011 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Just saying.

"I refuse to write on the chalkboard because I refuse to rock chalk, at all times." -The Forum
The user formerly known as EMAWrising

by MeatGeek on Apr 23, 2011 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

I just think we overplayed our hand is all

We did not need to give Texas everything to keep them. I am fairly confident that if we had just sat tight and waited, Texas would not have left. Why would they leave for the Pac-10, where they would not be the primary power-broker, and where they would only command marginally better TV profits.

We had other options, and I think we should have been fine with other outcomes instead of just doing whatever is possible to keep Texas. Let them leave to the PAC-10. We would not be making as much money as now, sure, but I think we would have been fine, and we would have been in a better partnership situation than before. We shouldn’t just let Texas walk all over us all the time. We should have some self-respect.

Forward into Battle

by ChrisP Wildcat on Apr 22, 2011 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

If the Pac 10 went to 16, I think the SEC and Big 10 would have done the same.

I’m not sure what the ACC or Big East would do, since they would likely lose teams.

by Texas Wahoo on Apr 22, 2011 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

And more importantly here,

people need to consider if such expansions to 16 happened in the SEC/Big-10/Pac-10 than one possible result would be the dreaded four “SuperConferences” with 64 teams cutting everyone else out of the picture. The fourth would most likely be some amalgamation of the ACC/BigEast (Miami, FSU, Maryland, VaTech, UVA, Pitt, WVU, etc). That would have left KSU without a seat.
I may love KSU, but I have to be realistic about its bargaining power in the grand scheme of things. Its based in a rural locale, brings few TV sets to the table (and let us remember how important a factor that is in all this), has a stadium under 60,000, doesn’t have the largest or richest alumni base, and its football program has had only about a decade-and-a-half’s worth of competitiveness. It hurts me not to place us on the same level of an OU or UT, but we have to deal in reality here folks. The three other major BCS conferences weren’t knocking down our door to bring us in – that much was underlined with Larry Scott’s Pac-16 rubbish that left us outside the barn looking at the dance inside. No way the Big-10 wants to push into the heartland any more since they wouldn’t be adding many TV subscribers to their network. And the SEC? Why on earth would the best football-playing conference want to push out of their geographic area and take on a school that struggles just to be competitive with the middle of the Big-12 on the gridiron? I’d love to see things differently, believe me, but this is the harsh landscape of “SuperConference” realignment fantasists and in that realm the bottom line is the bottom line.
All that being said, I don’t see SuperConferences in the future because the concept carries with it many negatives and difficulties. BUT, as Texas Wahoo points out (aptly in my opinion), should the Pac-16 been formed with Texas and OU in it I highly doubt that the Big-10 and SEC would have stood pat.

by CT-K-Stater on Apr 22, 2011 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

Texas has money. Texas has clout. Texas Tech has neither.

Nor does KSU or any other Big 12 school not names Oklahoma or A&M. That’s the way of the world, Bub, and you’d better get used to it, unless you want to get your guns up in the Mountain West. It sucks that things are the way they are, but there’s no sense crying about it.

Innovators look at the same thing as everyone else, yet see something different.

by K. Scott Bailey on Apr 22, 2011 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Bingo

See my response six replies above

by CT-K-Stater on Apr 22, 2011 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

As I've said on DoubleTNation...

I would rather get my Guns Up in the Mountain West. While you may think I’m lying or exagerrating, unless we improve by leaps and bounds in the next 5 years, I expect us to be in the MWC (or some other currently “minor” conference) in a few years ANYWAY. The BigXII is a dying conference led by an IDIOT of a commissioner. And now that Utah and CO are already in the expanded PAC, TTU needs to raise it’s profile to get an invite to a larger conference. If we were in the MWC right now, it’d hurt in the SHORT term, but it’d either improve that conference OR showcase us enough that when the BigXII explodes we’d be better positioned on THAT day.

by HeeroTX on Apr 22, 2011 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

It wouldn't "hurt" in the short term,

it would destroy your athletic department as you currently know it. Do you honestly think that TTU could afford Tuberville or Billy Clyde if they were in the MWC? And claiming that “the BigXII is a dying conference led by an IDIOT of a commissioner” is just inane. The Big 12 is not in any way “dying”, and Beebe (for all his faults) has shown himself to not be an “idiot.” I would say that you seem to have a serious case of “little brother syndrome”, except that it’s starting to sound more like “second-cousin-once-removed-who’s-pissed-they-didn’t-inherit-more-of-the-family-patriarch’s-wealth syndrome.”

TTU’s athletic department is in MUCH better shape now than it was before last summer. The Raiders will never approach UT’s level, no matter what happens. Demanding that UT’s wealth and power be redistributed to your school just makes you look petty and small.

Innovators look at the same thing as everyone else, yet see something different.

by K. Scott Bailey on Apr 22, 2011 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

From what I can tell, MWC currently pays $1mil per member, before the new deal, TTU made $7-8mil on conference TV payout. Assuming a loss of $6-7mil if we leave to MWC. Imagine for a moment that the new conference we beat all members (which is the standard argument for why MWC gets no respect, all members are weak), we have undefeated season and go to BCS. BCS payout = loss of revenue. Performance in 2008 also led to facility improvements and increased excitement for Tech. Assuming we see 11 win season, gate receipts and merch sales from “bandwagon” alums would raise dollars. In the SHORT term, we lose some monies from the tv deal. In the long term, we potentially become the next TCU or Boise where we gain in bowl payouts and alum support. Eventually gaining either better TV deal for MWC or better conference affiliation.

This ASSUMES that we can dominate the MWC (or at least play “rival” for Boise at the top), if I didn’t think we could at least do that, then I’d agree, we’re a pipsqueak looking to be fed by our betters. The NEW BigXII deal pays better than the aforementioned $7-8mil, but the “loss” projections assume that the MWC can’t do better with a talent infusion.

I will also FREELY admit that I don’t share your faith/optimism that the BigXII will survive more than 10 years, and yes, I AM worried that now we won’t have a seat when the music stops, and as long as we’re 4th or 5th in the conference (as opposed to 1st or 2nd in the MWC) that is a BIG risk we face.

by HeeroTX on Apr 22, 2011 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

"BCS payout = loss of revenue."

I think you’re confused about how the BCS payouts work for non-BCS conferences. I recommend this article:

http://espn.go.com/blog/ncfnation/post/_/id/15793/breaking-down-the-non-aqs-bcs-money

“If the payouts remain approximately the same as they did last year, which is expected, the Mountain West will lead the non-AQ conferences with a total revenue of $9.8 million and the WAC will earn $7.8 million. Both of these figures are before bowl expenses. "

That has to be shared with the rest of the conference.

by Texas Wahoo on Apr 22, 2011 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

I stand corrected, however, if the MWC has a deal remotely similar to the WAC (I admit, I don’t know the specifics and am generally fuzzy now on bowl payouts), Tech could make around $3-4mil on a BCS bowl payout based on Boise’s results:
http://www.businessinsider.com/nevada-lost-nearly-1-million-by-beating-boise-state-2010-11
$1mil + $3-4mil = $4-5mil vs. $7-8mil, a loss of $3mil which I’d be willing to wager (granted, not “guaranteed”) we’d recover in student/alumni support if we make the BCS.

PLUS, that all assumes that the MWC doesn’t see an improvement in fortune, which I think would be a foregone conclusion, if Tech left the BigXII. Not because I think we hold it together, but because a nine team league in today’s world is ridiculous. (heck, the current 10 team league is ridiculous)

by HeeroTX on Apr 22, 2011 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

He's confused about a lot of things.

Innovators look at the same thing as everyone else, yet see something different.

by K. Scott Bailey on Apr 22, 2011 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't like bending over for anybody, no matter how much money is involved

I guess we’re just different like that.

Would our “standing” be reduced because we are left out in the cold? Yes, but we’d have our dignity, and I prefer that to being a whore for more money.

That is just my personal preference though.

Forward into Battle

by ChrisP Wildcat on Apr 22, 2011 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh, good grief!

This is college athletics, for cripes’ sake! Some schools have more money and clout than others. Deal with it.

Innovators look at the same thing as everyone else, yet see something different.

by K. Scott Bailey on Apr 22, 2011 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

I am dealing with it

But I have every right to complain on a thread discussing the ramifications of TV contracts and realignment.

If you are tired of the argument then leave the thread. Don’t tell me to stop “crying” about it (Note: I have never shed tears over this debacle). I don’t know why you have to be offensive just because you disagree with me.

Forward into Battle

by ChrisP Wildcat on Apr 22, 2011 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Just as you have every right to gripe about things that aren't changing,

I also have every right to call out people for making claims about the non-UT schools simply being “whores” and talking about having “our dignity” or whatever. It’s college sports, not life and death.

Innovators look at the same thing as everyone else, yet see something different.

by K. Scott Bailey on Apr 22, 2011 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

I never said it was life and death

But you weren’t arguing the merits of the argument, you were saying that you were tired of listening to us whine about the deal.

Sorry for the frustration, I’m just getting REALLY tired of all the bitching and moaning about Texas. I don’t like them. I wish that the Big 8 had never bent over for them to begin with, but it is what it is now. The sooner we all deal with that, the better off everyone will be.

That is fine if you are tired about arguing these points, nobody is making you post on this thread. Just move on to something else. You saying that you are tired of this argument brings nothing to the table.

Some people feel that things like dignity can be applied to every aspect of life. If you don’t feel that way, good for you, to each their own. You didn’t really “call me out”. I wasn’t even making an argument, just stating the way I felt about things and clearly mentioning that it was OPINION, not fact. There wasn’t even a point in my post to “call out”, so it seems to me like you were just being condescending to my opinion.

Forward into Battle

by ChrisP Wildcat on Apr 25, 2011 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Please explain how "dignity" has anything to do with a university doing what's in its best fiscal interests.

And, yes, I was calling out people who obliquely imply that universities are “whores” and lack “dignity” because they did what was in their best fiscal interest.

Innovators look at the same thing as everyone else, yet see something different.

by K. Scott Bailey on Apr 25, 2011 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sure

“whore” being used to denote that they sold out for more money. Are you arguing that they didn’t agree to this because they wanted more money? Maybe the word is too offensive for you, and I apologize for that. I was using it as an analogy to convey my point as quickly as possibly. Are they actually a whore (prostitute)? No, they are not living creatures and as such can not engage in copulation. But the analogy is correct. They gave up some power for more money.

I don’t think a university has to only act in it’s best fiscal interest. Like I said below, I don’t believe money is all important. I know many people in today’s culture disagree with that, and that is fine, but for me there are much more important things.

They lost dignity because now they are all perceived as Texas’ bitch. They march to the orders of Texas, instead of their own.

And you were not calling me out:


Oh, good grief!
This is college athletics, for cripes’ sake! Some schools have more money and clout than others. Deal with it.

Where in there are you “calling me out” for making those comparisons? Looks to me like you think I’m just a cry-baby who needs to shut-up and be happy we are making more money.

Like I said, this is just my worldview, and it is perfectly valid, as is the opposing worldview. You are more than welcome to disagree with it, but I don’t see why you have to do it in such dismissive/condescending way.

Forward into Battle

by ChrisP Wildcat on Apr 25, 2011 4:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sigh.

They did it because it was in the best interest of the university. If you want to call wanting what’s in KSU’s best interest “whoredom”, then sign me up for whoredom. And neither KSU nor any of the forgotten 7 lost any “dignity” in this deal. They did what was best for their university.

…but I don’t see why you have to do it in such dismissive/condescending way.

Yeah, comparing the views of the people who disagree with you to whoredom isn’t “dismissive/condescending” at all.

Innovators look at the same thing as everyone else, yet see something different.

by K. Scott Bailey on Apr 25, 2011 6:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

I've heard the WAC is looking for new schools.

You could have a ton of dignity in that conference.

by Texas Wahoo on Apr 22, 2011 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

I would prefer to make my own way than ride on the coattails of others

I don’t control these things though. Obviously many others are glad that I don’t.

It is what it is.

Forward into Battle

by ChrisP Wildcat on Apr 22, 2011 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hence the prison analogy, which I do think is apt

Though I don’t mind being stuck with YOU so much, you seem a pretty reasonable and decent guy, as far as I can determine from internet posts. :-)

Forward into Battle

by ChrisP Wildcat on Apr 22, 2011 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

So you'd rather be the big fish in a tiny pond,

than a medium-sized fish in the ocean? Everyone who’s not the CEO/President/Founder/Whatever in this world “rides the coattails” of others. Not everyone gets to be the lead dog, CPW.

Innovators look at the same thing as everyone else, yet see something different.

by K. Scott Bailey on Apr 22, 2011 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

you want to be in a conference

where Kansas State is the big financial pull? I’m not sure what planet you are living on, but if you really think the WAC or the Sun Belt would be better than a BCS conference with the 3rd best conference payout, then I would say you never had to balance an athletic budget.

When I write: Rockies Reporter (www.rockiesreporter.wordpress.com)
"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year"

by Redhawk on Apr 22, 2011 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

KState isn’t going to be the big financial pull in a conference, but why can’t we have an agreement where KState gets equal share of the conference? You know, like ALL THE OTHER MAJOR CONFERENCES?

by HeeroTX on Apr 22, 2011 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Because we are in a conference were the difference between the schools is greater than the other conferences.

The difference between Texas and KState is a lot greater than the difference between Ohio State and Illinois.

by Texas Wahoo on Apr 22, 2011 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

O_o based on?

for the seasons 2004 through 2010 (made sure to include UT’s national championship, didn’t go older just because compiling the stats is tedious):
School + Winning %
UT: 81.7%
KSU: 46.1%
vs.
OSU: 83.0%
Illinois: 36.0%

(I should also point out, over this span, Illinois had a record of 1-5 against Ohio State and Kansas St. had a record of 3-0 against UT, I guess UT is lucky they were off the schedule in 2005. I can also note, that even if you exclude 2010 as an “outlier” for UT, there’s still a 43 % pt differential between UT and KSU and a 48 % pt differential between OSU and Illinois)

by HeeroTX on Apr 22, 2011 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm pretty certain that he's talking about on a financial basis.

Innovators look at the same thing as everyone else, yet see something different.

by K. Scott Bailey on Apr 22, 2011 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm pretty certain he's making the "SEC" argument

ie. While the Big12 #1 may be on par with the SEC #1, the SEC #6 would DESTROY the Big12 #6 (and in their opinion, probably the Big12 #4 & 5)

Since he was responding to why the members can’t have equal shares and it makes no sense to base shares on the amount of money schools ALREADY have. But I’d be curious to read that line of thought if he’s trying to make that point.

by HeeroTX on Apr 22, 2011 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

that's an incredibly flawed article

Points to ponder:
The article was written before the new agreement, to see what that means:
TV deals for the Big10 during the period in question, combined $230mil annually
TV deals for the Big12 during the period in question, combined $60mil annually
Even IF we had an even split (again, we don’t) each school would earn $20mil+ in Big10 and $5mil in Big12. Put Baylor in the Big10 and suddenly they’re earning more than half the Big12 in football revenue annually.

It should also be noted that those numbers come from the 2009 football season. Don’t get me wrong, UT makes a metric TON of money, but I think using numbers explicitly from a season you guys made the National Title game skews things a LITTLE bit. considering:
“when we take a look at revenue the statute requires that it include gate receipts, broadcast revenues, appearance guarantees and options, concessions, and advertising.”

(Don’t get me wrong, if you put UTexas in the Big10, obviously they’d have made even MORE money, but swap Illinois for Kansas State and you’d see a big improvement on KState’s numbers and a BIG drop in Illinois’, that’s the difference the revenue sharing makes)

by HeeroTX on Apr 22, 2011 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

I welcome you to find an article with more up to date data.

The problem with the Big XII is that it is a collection of disimilar universities trying to get along. The Big Ten is much more homogenious – all large state schools (except Northwester) in midwestern states. The Big XII spans very different states and has huge differences in enrollment, university goals, and fan support.

by Texas Wahoo on Apr 22, 2011 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

understood

I’m just saying the implication of a huge disparity (made by the article) is based on the situation wherin even WITH equal sharing the middle school would be gaining over 75% LESS in tv deal monies than the Big Ten. It says by AVERAGE revenue the Big12 is 3rd, but by Midpoint revenue we’re tied for last. It makes no mention that the top two conferences in both sets are the conferences with the biggest (by far) tv deals at the time.

by HeeroTX on Apr 22, 2011 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

This.

http://www.ensbsn.com/2010/11/sec-revenue-2009-10-the-alabama-money-machine/

The Big Ten and SEC have much better distributions of revenue (which is a general proxy for fan support, etc.).

by Texas Wahoo on Apr 22, 2011 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

to be fair

the Big East and the SEC also have uneven revenue sharing, and also have the members keep their third tier rights.

The Pac-10, and the Big 10 are “all in” as well as equal sharing, as is the MWC (which is why BYU left….BYU has their own cable channel). USC thought seriously about leaving the Pac-10 because of the equal revenue (and the 3rd tier rights)

Ultimately there are 2 ways of doing it. Neither way is with out issues. the Big 12 chooses unequal revenue and the schools keeping their 3rd their rights.

When I write: Rockies Reporter (www.rockiesreporter.wordpress.com)
"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year"

by Redhawk on Apr 22, 2011 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Thank you RedHawk and K.Scott,

for talking sense because this has gone from anger at Texas getting 3rd Tier TV to last summer’s Big-12 salvation somehow being an assault on the dignity of KSU, ISU, KU, TTU, Mizzou and all the other nobodies in the conference not named Texas. Oh, and a missed opportunity for the Big-12 dregs not to have made the shrewd jump to the Mountain West.
From a KSU perspective, the Big-12 holding together was a net win. K-State remains in a BCS conference, with its traditional rivalries (save for Nebraska) intact, will make (much) more money, and avoided taking a pay-cut and a step down football-wise. Yet we’re supposed to be pissed off at Texas and therefore take our ball and march off to the Mountain West? All because of putting false pride over financial and athletic practicality? We make more in the Big-12 and our stature and recruiting profile is improved by remaining in the conference. Period.
If the wrecking ball of SuperConferences and a 64-team elite division had emerged out of the ashes last summer – and I admit being skeptical of that idea – but if it had because the SEC and Big-10 rushed to follow the lead of the Pac-16 and expand, then do you honestly believe the SEC or Big-10 would have asked KSU (and yes, you too KU and ISU) to join their conferences? Seriously? I’m not saying that because I feel the Big-10 is anything special, it most certainly is not, but under their elite pretensions they don’t see any gain from taking the Kansas schools or ISU. Ditto – even more so – the SEC.
Bottom line: All the political pull in the world wouldn’t save KSU from being left without a seat once the music stopped. So if that’s what you want, by all means, keep wishing for it. In the meantime President Schultz and John Currie have a university and athletic department to run and have to deal in the real world. Which isn’t always fair.

by CT-K-Stater on Apr 23, 2011 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Just because we are better off than worst case doesn't mean I have to like how we got here

I’m not trying to say the world is perfect or anything. I’m just venting my frustration with how things went down.

Yeah, shit happens, and we have to deal with it. Life isn’t fair. So what? You can complain about stuff and deal with it as well. I’m not the KSU president/athletic director, and I don’t want to be, so I don’t have to worry about this stuff that they have to worry about.

Just because my preference would have been to go a different route doesn’t mean the route we went was a bad one. I just would have done it differently, what is so wrong with that? Why do I have to agree with it? Because we’re making more money?

Count me as someone who does not believe the ends justify the means. I would have preferred for us to stand up to the big boys, even if we ended up being cast aside for dead. Just my opinion. Just my personality. Just my worldview.

I don’t know how this is “false pride”. WTF does that mean? I just believe there are more important things than money, and would like my institutions I support to reflect that philosophy. I know that is anathema in US culture today, but that is how I feel. And there is nothing invalid about that viewpoint, however much you may disagree with it.

Forward into Battle

by ChrisP Wildcat on Apr 25, 2011 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not "better off than worst case", better off than ANY OTHER CASE.

Innovators look at the same thing as everyone else, yet see something different.

by K. Scott Bailey on Apr 25, 2011 6:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

And agreeing with your position presupposes that the means were wrong in the first place.

There are haves and have-nots in every situation in life. In this case, we just happened to be amongst the have-nots, unfortunately.

Innovators look at the same thing as everyone else, yet see something different.

by K. Scott Bailey on Apr 25, 2011 6:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nothing "invalid" about your viewpoint, Chris

and of course you are to entitled to your own. No one said otherwise. But to forget that higher education institutions – particularly ones competing in athletics at the top level – are not businesses is to miss the picture. It may be unfortunate and not coalesce with your worldview, but it is the reality.
You mentioned above that you believe KSU lost its “dignity” because it is now perceived as being Texas’ “bitch”. So the solution was to walk away, let Texas (and Oklahoma) bust up the Big-12, and hope we could catch on with the MWC – all while accepting a diminished brand in the national sports consciousness? Consider that to meet your definition of dignity that you’re asking K-State to go toe-to-toe with Texas on negotiating 3rd-Tier TV rights at the risk of seeing our inclusion in a BCS conference (and the second-best football conference in the country) implode. I’m sorry, but I don’t see that as practical and don’t see allowing such TV rights for Texas as the big deal that you and HeeroTX do. I mean that as no disrespect, just that I unequivocally disagree.
Yes, in a perfect world KSU could have stood up last June and told Texas (and I HATE Texas) and Oklahoma to kiss off and run to the PAC-16 while it waited to be feted by the Big-10 and SEC and been begged to join their conferences. Even better, in a perfect world we could sit there as a nationally-recognized independent ala Notre Dame and collect our own grand national TV deal. But unfortunately that is not the reality we have to deal with – and I for one was not looking forward to KSU versus Colorado State, KSU versus Wyoming, etc, when all this $#it was going down last summer.
Here is a question: If Texas has an athletic budget near or over $100 million and KSU has one of around $17 million, what would that extra $1-2 million in shared 3rd Tier TV rights do for KSU in making up the difference with the Longhorns? Would it buy us a 10,000 seat stadium expansion – presuming we could fill it for every home game? If equal revenue sharing from 3rd Tier TV rights is the end all be all and means that the “haves” will be able to dominate the conference than I’m curious why KSU kicked the hell out of Texas last season – and why the Longhorns finished 5-7. More revenue most certainly makes running an athletic department and recruiting players easier and it helps prevent long dips in one football programs fortunes – but it doesn’t always guarantee victories on the field.

by CT-K-Stater on Apr 26, 2011 8:18 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Rec'd for being completely rational.

Innovators look at the same thing as everyone else, yet see something different.

by K. Scott Bailey on Apr 26, 2011 8:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Good points, all of them

I understand that the way universities are currently run they are big businesses. But I don’t like it and therefore don’t support it.

I also think that we (in a collective, non-specific sense) caved into Texas last year. I think we could have let the Big XII rules exist as is, not guarantee the Longhorns could have their own network, and see what happens. I do think Beebe’s proposal was a good idea, but I didn’t like the idea of guaranteeing that OU and UT get a certain amount of money or that we cave in on the Longhorn Network.

I personally don’t think that Texas would have let, because of all the negatives with going to the PAC 10 (definitely no Longhorn Network, having to share the political power with USC, long distances, etc.). I think the entire time Texas was just playing us so they could get everything they wanted, and we handed it to them.

If we had called their bluff, I’m near certain they would have stayed. But we were SO afraid of losing out on money and prestige that we panicked and caved in. We did not think rationally, and as such did not act in our best interest. Maybe the Longhorn Network is in the best interest of the conference (and KSU), but not the way things went down.

I personally am OK ENOUGH with going to a ‘lesser conference’ and losing out on the money/prestige that I would have definitely taken that gamble, pointing out the whole time to Texas all of the drawbacks to leaving. I would have told Texas that this was the set-up that they had already agreed to, and that if they wanted to discuss the set-up of the Big 12 at the Big 12 meetings then we would be more than happy to listen. But we are not going to bargain with them while they try to bully us with scare tactics.

I don’t think this means that Texas will be able to be any more dominate than they already are. For me this has nothing to do with the money, or with our ability to compete in the conference.

Furthermore, I don’t buy the argument (made by others, not you) that standing up to Texas and possibly falling to the MWC is a short-sighted approach. In fact, I think caving in is the short-sighted approach because it subscribes to the view that we have to keep Texas because they pull the big money and always will. That is neither a true statement nor a false one, it is just the way things exist now. There are no guarantees that Texas will always be the big market dog.

The plains states and the mountain west states are still very young, and demographics are constantly changing. In fact, the mountain west states are currently seeing a marked increase in their populations. There is opportunity there for the long-view minded person to corner the market and rake in big money in the far future. Did you know that Kansas once had roughly the same population as California? For over 30 years! There is no law of the universe that says Texas HAS to have more people/money than everyone else and the plains/mountain states have to have little population/states.

Now, of course, that is not to say they will change either, but at least KSU would be relying on ITSELF instead of other people to make it’s decisions. Ultimately, KSU has little control over the demographics, and how much money it can conceivable make, but it ALWAYS will have control over how it makes it’s decisions.

Are the things I want abstract and subjective? Without a doubt. I have different desires for my alma mater than just being able to earn more money and being able to recruit more.

As jonfmorse said (paraphrased), we can be happy about the outcome and unhappy about the process. That is where I stand. Things could have been handled better by KSU and by Beebe. Just because the outcome is objectively better does not mean that the decisions made to get there were the best. Obviously determining whether the decisions that resulted in that outcome are good is a much more subjective process.

Winter is coming, but Summer will rip your jugular out if you step out of line.

by ChrisP Wildcat on Apr 27, 2011 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

Fair enough, my friend

although definitely – as you admit – abstract. Nothing wrong with that, or your view that things could have been handled a bit better by Beebe (I actually think, however, KSU/Schulz-Currie handled this about as well as it could).
I guess all this doesn’t matter now as what is done is done regarding the Big-12. I, for one, was absolutely thrilled to see the conference survive because I have felt ever since it was formed that it can more than stand toe-to-toe with any other conference on the gridiron. Even with Nebraska’s exodus I don’t think that changes one iota.
Had the Big-12 impoded:
I think the MWC is better than the Big Least in football (what conference isn’t?) and it makes a bit more geographic sense for KSU. But because of the Big East’s automatic BCS tie-in and outstanding hoops given the option of the two I think KSU would have chosen to join the Big East. A lot of that depends, of course, on what KU (and even Mizzou and ISU) wanted to do, but with hoops – particularly at KU – a big consideration I don’t think that given the opportunity they would have forsaken the Big East for the MWC. Just my guess.
Also – as I pointed out in a response way above – I distinctly recall President Schulz mentioning that one of the things The Forgotten Five were considering during the entire PAC-16 rumor period was to work on a new Big-12 (which would, ideally, have allowed the five members to collect withdrawal fees from the other 7 schools that left). I’m just guessing here, but I would assume they would ask Colorado St., Air Force, BYU, Utah, Houston and TCU, among others, to join. That would effectively gut the MWC.
Of course all this is conjecture at this point.
One other thing: interesting point about demographics – and I agree there is no such thing as concrete, absolute terms regarding them – but it would be a long, long time before the mountain states bypass the more heavily-populated areas if they do. Look at the heart of the Big-10 conference, which lies in the Rust Belt. Populations there are stagnant or slowly receding, but not fast enough to deny the Big-10 a huge TV market and fan base.

by CT-K-Stater on Apr 27, 2011 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think that would have been my preference if Texas had left

The keeping the Big 12 barely alive thing, and I am glad to hear that Schultz/Currie thought hard about that option (I don’t remember hearing anything about that option when things blew up).

You are of course right, it would be a very long time before the rest of the Big 12 or the MWC would bypass Texas and other heavily populated states. That’s why it is the (very, very) long-view. :-)

Of course, now that I think about it, there really is no reason to plan anything beyond next year, it being 2012 and all…

Winter is coming, but Summer will rip your jugular out if you step out of line.

by ChrisP Wildcat on Apr 27, 2011 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

The whole thing about keeping the Big 12 alive with 5 schools

was something I thought should happen when it seemed inevitable that Nub, CU, UT, OU, OSU, A&M, and Tech were out the door. If I remember right, there’s some bylaw about needing 75% of conference members (9 in that case) to vote to dissolve the conference. As long as the Forgotten Five had stuck together, the Big 12 could have remained a going concern by adding 3-5 schools (TCU plus ?) and trying to perform well enough in football not to lose the automatic BCS qualifier. What with the cash from all the withdrawal fees, that seemed like a pretty feasible plan at the time.

Innovators look at the same thing as everyone else, yet see something different.

by K. Scott Bailey on Apr 27, 2011 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

My thoughts exactly

Although I think they would need to at least 5, if not 7. They would need 1-2 Texas teams, maybe pluck Tulsa to give them Oklahoma and geographically link the Forgotten Five (Kansas into Texas, Manhattan to Waco), and then add from either Colorado/utah schools and Boise to the west, or head to the east (nab Memphis, Louisville, Cincy, Tulane or some group thereof). Its fun to consider what the makeup of such a conference would look like – just glad we didn’t end up having to face it. I’m happy to see the Big-12 remain as it is, warts and all. No conference is perfect and I think the future of the Big-12 is more solid than people suspect (barring some really seismic event in the CFL landscape).

by CT-K-Stater on Apr 27, 2011 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

A few things

First, it’s always difficult predicting too far ahead. The day before ESPN put out the rumor that Mizzou was a target for the Big Ten, the Big XII looked like one of the strongest conferences in the land. barely six months later, it nearly blew itself apart. Stable conferences don’t do that as evidenced by the seemingly eternal rumors that Arkansas wants to leave the SEC. The prison analogy is actually a good one. We may all be in this together, but everyone has one hand on their shiv and are watching the yard warily. No one trusts anyone else and that’s not going to change because of a big media deal.

Second, the Big XII has shown time and again that they are a regressive conference and it always gets them into trouble. They didn’t want a conference network and gave that initiative away to the Big Ten which came back to bite the conference last year. They didn’t want equal revenue sharing which impaired the ability to form bonds of trust between the schools which came back to bite them last year. And now, while every other conference has moved to the championship game format, the Big XII gets rid of it and then rationalizes it with “We never really liked championship games anyway”. The Big XII always seems to get outmaneuvered by conferences run by savvier and more ruthless commissioners. What happened during the realignment saga should have been a wake-up call to the Big XII members, but instead they decided to double down. No lessons were learned and the idea that somehow things are going to work out great if we just turn it up to 11 is delusional.

Finally, we really don’t know what Jim Delany’s end game is. Was the Big Ten only looking for a single member to get their championship game? Or did he actually have a plan to break up the Big XII and establish the Big Ten as a superconference? We really don’t know because Texas forced the issue before the Big Ten was ready to act, forcing them to take Nebraska early as a homerun hire. If Delany is content with that, the current situation may last for a while. If his ambitions are greater than grabbing a fanbase that dresses up as corn, then this is all going to start up again very soon.

In short, I have no faith in the Big XII as an institution. As we saw last year, when things get tough for the Big XII, logic and reason fly out the window.

by Gaknar on Apr 21, 2011 11:07 PM CDT reply actions  

The Big Ten is no longer a threat to the Big 12, no matter how much Mizzou wants to be there.

Delaney’s moment as the bully aggressor has passed, and a new status quo has been established. There is no real reason that the Big Ten would want to slice the pie up any further, but even if there was, the Big 12’s position is no longer financially weak.

Innovators look at the same thing as everyone else, yet see something different.

by K. Scott Bailey on Apr 22, 2011 7:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

I had fun

mentioning to the un-l folks that the B1G was just using NE to become adjacent to KS so they could ask KU and KSU to join in a short period of time. Now I wasn’t serious but it was entertaining to see their reaction, since they could not see themselves being used like this.

The time for calm and rational discourse is past, now is the time for senseless bickering -Anonymous the Younger

by Anon_the_younger on Apr 22, 2011 8:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

The Big XII wasn't financially weak when they negotiated their last contract either

Then the BTN came along and the SEC and ACC signed mega contracts and suddenly things weren’t looking so rosy. In the immediate future, the Pac-12 will be renegotiating their deal and possibly their own version of the BTN. The Big East is negotiating as well. Ten years from now, the financial landscape will look much different than it does now.

As for Jim Delany, you have no clue what he will or won’t do, which was my original point. Prior to the Big Ten’s expansion announcement, the idea of the Big Ten picking off a Big XII member and the Pac-10 grabbing the entire south division was ludicrous. Once the rumors started flying and the old resentments came out, everything went in a very unexpected direction. Pretty much every conference commissioner except for Dan Beebe has shown that they are ruthless opportunists who will do whatever it takes to strengthen their conferences. Maybe they pause right now to consolidate their gains, but as Larry Scott showed, when an opportunity arises, those guys will move fast to take advantage of it.

by Gaknar on Apr 22, 2011 9:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

I disagree:

“They didn’t want equal revenue sharing which impaired the ability to form bonds of trust between the schools which came back to bite them last year.”

Equal revenue sharing wouldn’t have kept Nebraska or CU in the conference, so I don’t really see how it came back to bite the Big XII. NU was one of the strongest opponents of equal revenue sharing and CU was going to leave for the Pac 10 whenever they got an offer anyway.

Also, I think the Big Ten might have realized their hand is not quite as strong as they thought it was. Breaking up the Big XII will send the best teams in the Big XII to the Pac 10 or the SEC. I don’t see why the Big Ten would want to send Texas, OU, and A&M to rival conferences and pick off Mizzou or Kansas…

by Texas Wahoo on Apr 22, 2011 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

Totally agree

If the Big 10 were to expand further, and I personally don’t think they will, I think they would look to the East Coast TV markets. NYC or DC would be better choices than Missouri.

When I write: Rockies Reporter (www.rockiesreporter.wordpress.com)
"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year"

by Redhawk on Apr 22, 2011 9:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

You're putting words in my mouth

Nebraska’s problem was always that they wanted to be what Texas is now, and unequal revenue sharing was a part of that. But remember what drove the rumors about Missouri leaving. Mizzou had at the time two Big Ten rivals on their border who made ~$11 million a year just from the BTN and who were traditional recruiting rivals in the state of Missouri. Pinkel has been complaining about it for years. Mizzou has managed to fight their way up the appearance pool rankings, but it’s been through a strategy of frugality as opposed to the wealth accumulation strategy of Texas. Whether it would have been enough to drive Mizzou out of the conference is immaterial. What matters is the perception nationally and within the conference that Mizzou was unhappy is what drove the rumors and gave Nebraska and Texas the excuse they needed to do their little West Side Story routine. And it’s not just Mizzou. Iowa State has a Big Ten rival in their own state that they’ve been trailing for years. You can’t tell me that an extra couple of million a year wouldn’t have made K-State’s life in the Big XII a little more enjoyable. The view is a lot different from the bottom than it is from the top.

by Gaknar on Apr 22, 2011 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

I agree - all of the former Big XII north members would rather be in the Big Ten, for a variety of reasons.

Fortunately (or unfortunately?), the Big Ten does not appear to want any of them. I’m not convinced that having equal revenue sharing will stop any of them from leaving if the Big Ten wants them. I don’t think equal revenue sharing is likely to make the conference any stronger – it will only change the parties that are unhappy with the money. The question is whether we would rather have Iowa State and the Kansas schools unhappy or Texas, OU, and A&M unhappy.

by Texas Wahoo on Apr 22, 2011 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

And from a KU perspective,

I can’t see why anyone would be unhappy.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Apr 22, 2011 8:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

great article

and this is why the Longhorn Network doesn’t change a thing:

Texas already was and is making more money than the rest of the big 12, and in fact has the largest athletic budget in the nation.

Being the richest has helped them win much yet, a little more won’t. In fact as a percentage of Athletic Budget, the other schools will get a greater income boost from the new Fox deal and the upcoming Big 12-ish network then UT will with the Longhorn Network.

When I write: Rockies Reporter (www.rockiesreporter.wordpress.com)
"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year"

by Redhawk on Apr 22, 2011 12:29 AM CDT reply actions  

has NOT helped them win

damn no edit button

When I write: Rockies Reporter (www.rockiesreporter.wordpress.com)
"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year"

by Redhawk on Apr 22, 2011 12:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

One thing I've never been able to fathom

is why anyone thinks giving up third-tier rights to UT is going to make that much of a difference in anyone’s pocketbook anyway. It’s not like anyone’s going to be shelling out megabucks for the Big 12 softball contract. The only thing that really gets hurt is the content on any future Big 12 Network, but:

1) I would be willing to bet anyone that if such a network were launched, Texas (and Oklahoma, if they do their thing) would actually be willing to cede (on a case-by-case basis, of course) certain programming for the benefit of the network.

2) This really doesn’t matter, because as I have repeatedly tried to explain to lots of people, the only thing that matters to a potential Big 12 Network is “no system in Big 12 territory will dare refuse to carry this network unless our per-subscriber demand is unreasonable, so how much can we get per subscriber?” This is really important, too; you have to understand that while UT is the biggest of the big dogs in Texas, there’s still enough Aggies to ensure that no cable system in Texas will refuse to carry the network. Same with Oklahoma and their Aggies.

My new blog: Those Other Guys. Critiques welcome.

by jonfmorse on Apr 22, 2011 9:36 PM CDT reply actions  

TB's initial article said it best:
The bottom line is that the seven lesser partners can be as jealous and butthurt as they want over not getting as much money as UT, OU and Texas A&M, but there really isn’t much they can do about it…

What it all boils down to is that we can either choose to be all pissy, and accuse Beebe of stripping the 7 “other guys” of their “dignity” or we can just say, “Hey, cool! We’re still in a Big 6 conference, and we are now making lots more money for our athletic department than we were before.” I choose the latter, thanks.

Innovators look at the same thing as everyone else, yet see something different.

by K. Scott Bailey on Apr 23, 2011 10:48 AM CDT reply actions   2 recs

And not just a Big 6 conference,

one of the top four conferences and arguably the second-best football conference. It’s a win for everybody. Nebraska gets out from Texas’ shadow and joins the Big-10 where they – along with their new conference partners – can foster their delusions of Ivy League-like academic grandeur. Colorado moves westward where they identify themselves geographically. Texas and OU get what they want. And we get upgraded TV revenues. I can see – somewhat – why A&M and TTU are a bit upset, but not why any one among the Forgotten Five might be (except maybe Mizzou, what with their own bubble of pretense having been burst).

by CT-K-Stater on Apr 23, 2011 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

Why would aTm be upset? They get more revenue now than they would have in the SEC.

And TTU is in a MUCH better position now than they were before—and that they would have be in had Beebe not negotiated the new TV deals.

Innovators look at the same thing as everyone else, yet see something different.

by K. Scott Bailey on Apr 23, 2011 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

I should have clarified

The FANS are the ones who are upset, not so much, I believe, the administrators. TTU would have been safely locked into a PAC-16 mega-conference where the size of the conference, the addition of USC and others into equation, and the equal revenue sharing would have – hypothetically – diluted Texas’ sway. It was my understanding that upon Texas announcing it was staying in the Big-12 that Tech’s AD and president had been all set and happy to join the PAC-10, but as I pointed out way up above perhaps they have now been assuaged by the $$$ and the idea that for all its warts a Big-12(of ten) is better than all the travel that a PAC-16 would have required for their Olympic sports and fan bases. Obviously, as HeeroTX has repeatedly shown in replies, the TTU fan base doesn’t seem thrilled at missing out on what might have been.
Meanwhile Texas A&M fans feel they would have been in the SEC and better off out from under Texas’ shadow. I respect A&Ms tradition, resources and fan base, but I think the Aggies would find it rather hard to consistently compete for SEC titles on an annual basis whereas in the Big-12 they are in a bit of a better position to do so (depending on overall conference strength in a given year, of course). That is if they even would have been allowed to split with TTU and Texas and go to the SEC rather than take the PAC-10s offer (state politics).
That in a nutshell is my understanding of the arguments from both fan bases. So as JohnMorse points out, ego overrules practicality and perception overrules reality.

by CT-K-Stater on Apr 24, 2011 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

Tech found out quickly

the they were an add-on to the Pac-16 deal, not an addition

without texas, the Pac-10 didn’t want or need Tech

If A&M had gone to the SEC and texas to the Pac-15, it would have been a huge boon to A&M in football, and hurt texas’ football program. texas’ football recruiting would have suffered when recruits compared the option of playing in the best football conference in the nation versus flying to game in California. As for adjusting to the competition level in the SEC, with our resources, we would have been competing for SEC titles inside 5 years, if not sooner. Being the only Texas school in the SEC would have paid huge dividends.

by Beergut on Apr 24, 2011 9:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Simple:

Ego. Nothing else about this matters to them; arch-rival UT’s getting a sweet ride, and they’re not getting one just as good. It rankles them.

(Not judging them for it; I’d be rankled too.)

My new blog: Those Other Guys. Critiques welcome.

by jonfmorse on Apr 23, 2011 6:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't know, Jon

I think if the difference between K-State being a legitimate Big 6 school and a member of a much lesser conference was kU getting a bigger payday than us, I’d be okay with that. I think that some fans don’t truly understand the difference in both budget and perception between Big 6 conferences and the other conferences.

Innovators look at the same thing as everyone else, yet see something different.

by K. Scott Bailey on Apr 23, 2011 7:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh, they're happy they're getting paid.

You can be happy about that and still be irked like hell about the other.

My new blog: Those Other Guys. Critiques welcome.

by jonfmorse on Apr 23, 2011 9:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

But they're actually making noise like they think TTU should have just gone to the MWC.

That’s just incredibly short-sighted and loony.

Innovators look at the same thing as everyone else, yet see something different.

by K. Scott Bailey on Apr 23, 2011 11:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

You do realize that all third-tier television rights belonged to all Big 12 schools before the realignment talks last Summer

and while the Big Ten and Pac-12 are into sharing those rights to create conference networks, the Big 12 and SEC have always allowed their members schools to do what they wanted with those rights, hence the fact that A&M never goes on PPV b/c $Bill is a misguided cheapass.

One of the reasons SEC schools make so much more money than everyone else is b/c individual schools have lucrative third-tier contracts in-state.

People are acting like the longhorn network is something new, but it is not; the only thing different about the steer channel and the SEC local networks is ESPN is the one backing castrated bovine television.

by Beergut on Apr 24, 2011 4:10 AM CDT reply actions  

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