K-State Slate: 3.4.11
by TB on Mar 4, 2011 7:58 AM CST
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It's been a question we've discussed often on this blog, but not so much since the turnaround: Where does Jacob Pullen rank among K-State's all-time greats? I can't answer that question with certainty yet, but there's no doubt in my mind that his number will find its way to the Octagon's rafters.
The K-State baseball home opener is tonight. Yesterday's weather would have been better, but hey, baseball's back. That's always good news, right?
While we're on the subject of college baseball, here are a couple interesting links for you. JJ Stankevitz (a/k/a UribeAuction), friend of BOTC, has an excellent post on KBIA Sports about the NCAA's new bat regulations and the effect it's had on Missouri baseball this year. SB Nation's "Beyond the Box Score" takes a slightly more broad-based look at the subject, and it's fairly obvious that offensive production is down significantly this year.
Mike Anderson won't talk about Arkansas, and you know what that means OMIGOD HE'S SOOOOOO GOING TO ARKANSAS WHOOOO PIG SOOOOEEEEEEYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!
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I don't feel qualified to say where Pullen ranks all-time.
It’s not quite comparing apples to oranges. Maybe more like comparing fuji to red delicious. But I do feel confident saying he’s somewhere in the top 10, which to me qualifies him as an all-time great K-State player. I’m sure there are people that would argue that, either on whether he’s in the top 10, or whether top 10 qualifies as all-time great. But until someone else comes along and takes the title from him, Jake will be the first player a generation of K-State basketball fans think of.
He's one of those players who had to improve
and therefore stay all four years. This makes it difficult to judge because he broke so many records. I think what makes him in my top 5 is his ability to step up when the games on the line and pressure is on. The Xavier game last year embedded him into history and the KU game this year reinforced that he is a winner deep down. I wasn’t alive for Barrett and Parr or even Blackmon, but I’m sure if Jake was on their team they wouldn’t be opposed to him taking the ball in the final minute to win the game. That’s just my perspective. He’s got BALLS when the game is on the line and that, to me, is more important than the numbers.
Bitchslapping Texas since 1997
I think he's a top-10 player right now
even if we lose the next 3 games and he doesn’t break the record.
I think his legacy into the top 5 will depend on how far we go into the tournament. Two Elite 8 runs AND the scoring record? Sounds like top-3 to me.
Surgeon General's Warning: K-State-Mizzou basketball may increase the risk of high blood pressure. Please consult your doctor prior to watching any of these games.
As you both have said, who is to say what each great player "ranks", but I do know
that Jake is the leader of the team during a four year stretch that at the very least will include three NCAA tournament appearances, an Elite Eight appearance, two of the most memorable performances by a Cat ever (Xavier last year, KU this year), and (hopefully) four top four Big 12 finishes. Tack on the personal records and there needs not be debate – Jacob Pullen is a very special player who won’t come around very often. He’ll be my favorite Cat ever and I imagine it’s going to be along time before someone comes along to contend for that ever important title.
Oh he's my favorite player too.
But my K-State history starts in 2002. My top-5 (favorite players) are:
1. Jacob Pullen
2. Cartier Martin
3. Michael Beasley
4. Clent Stewart
5. David Hoskins
But when I look to the rafters and see a bunch of final four and elite eight banners, it’s hard to justify calling Jake the all-time great because other teams have succeeded him in terms of overall success. I have no knowledge of these players, but the banners speak for themselves.
Surgeon General's Warning: K-State-Mizzou basketball may increase the risk of high blood pressure. Please consult your doctor prior to watching any of these games.
Spot on, mystman
Not to toot my own horn too loudly, but I am surprised at how prescient my "eleven best" post was with regard to where Jake should rank on the K-State all time great list.
http://www.bringonthecats.com/2011/2/8/1982034/ksus-top-eleven-in-basketball
It was written the Sunday after our road victory at Iowa State – the game with the lucky bounce and Jake’s last second layup to win. I didn’t think Jake played a particularly great game, despite the last second heroics. I summed up my comments with:
"Nonetheless, Jake deserves major respect for his role in making KSU basketball relevant these last four years and, as I have said before, his effort in last year’s Xavier game is the single most courageous effort by a Wildcat that I can recall. For these reasons Jake deserves to be considered one of the all time greats. Now, if Jake can somehow elevate the play of this TEAM these last weeks of his senior year, I think he would have the chance to jump up there with Chuckie Williams – in that area of the list. I’’m hoping he finds a way, as a senior leader, to get this team to live up to the expectations we had for the team going into the season. EMAW!"
Now, the transformation of this team since the KU win has been so pleasant to watch, and much of that credit has to go first, to the coaching staff for changing the offense, and second to Jake, because he simply has elevated his play and leadership to superstar heights. On my list, right now, I’d put him just above Henson. I can see a case for putting him in the top five on my list (supplanting Willie Murrel). I can’t put him above Mike Evans though. Evans was simply a better scorer. I have confidence now that this team is not going back to its January way of playing. Jake deserves to be in the top seven or eight on any list, and I can’t argue with anyone who wants to put him in the top five.
oh hail the Purple and White
You have Willie Murrel (4) above Mike Evans (5) on your list.
I think you may have just revised your list without even knowing it! :-D
Forward into Battle
by ChrisP Wildcat on Mar 4, 2011 9:10 AM CST up reply actions
Murrel is there
simply for pure athletic ability. The guy was silk, and his play against UCLA (twice) and like I said, his effort against Dave Stallworth in Wichita in the regional final, was up there with Jake’s effort against Xavier last year. Murrel was also a juco transfer and hence had only a two year career. If I took Murrel out of my top five, I’d move Evans to 4 and Jake to 5. Jake’s four year contribution is more significant than the two year contribution of Murrell. Depends on what the criteria are in making the list.
oh hail the Purple and White
And Murrell got us to the final 4
that is hard to ignore.
oh hail the Purple and White
Thanks for the explanation
I wasn’t sure if you were saying you would re-arrange the top five or if you just forgot how you had arranged it to begin with.
I wish I knew more about basketball so I could meaningfully contribute to this discussion, but I just never learned. My wife is teaching me, though. Why, just the other day she explained to me what a post player was!!
Forward into Battle
by ChrisP Wildcat on Mar 4, 2011 10:07 AM CST up reply actions
Grandpa speaks the truth.
I don't measure a man's success by how high he climbs but how high he bounces when he hits bottom. - General George S. Patton
There always seems to be one looming albatross for every coach in the nation, no matter where you are...
KU had to sweat OSU (Self’s alma mater with T. Boone money), we sweat Miami, and Mizzou sweats Arkansas.
I think every coach has some sort of affinity for a school or region, and you’re always at risk of losing them. I firmly believe that Bob Huggins would still be here today if any school other than WVU were interested. However, he was a lifelong fan, alumni, and former player, and it would be hard to resist that temptation. Seeing how happy he is there now, and how we’re still in good shape, really leaves me with no ill will towards him.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that the long standing belief among a lot of avid college basketball fans is that the one job Anderson most likely won’t turn down is Arkansas. It’s not a jab against Mizzou, but it’s hard to see that it isn’t the one job he really, really covets. And if you’re a coach, why wouldn’t you want to make big money in a lesser basketball conference? I bet they come at him with at least $2.5 million a year to bring back Nolan Smith’s system, and I’m pretty sure he’ll love not having to play KU and K-State every single year.
Bring on the Cats
"Without getting into specifics, my exit involves a McFlurry machine and a video tape of risque commercials from overseas." -- Jack Donaghy
by Panjandrum on Mar 4, 2011 8:48 AM CST reply actions 2 recs
I agree with all of this.
I will say though, while Arkansas is probably a job that could lure Anderson, the media makes way too big a deal over coaches dodging these questions during the season. What else is he supposed to do? The responsible thing for him to do is to focus on Mizzou right now and then listen to whatever offers come in the offseason. +
No one questions when someone is working an office job and gets a call from a company trying to poach him. You work as hard as you can and should for your current job and consider for yourself and your family the other opportunity. People nowadays (Frank included) harp on and on about how loyalty is dead. It’s not. At the end of the day there’s something very valuable to Anderson or Frank or whoever listening to an offer and saying, “No. School X believed in me before you. I’m loyal to them.” But to be blindly loyal and not even consider offers (which fans and media seem to think is the way they should handle it) would just be foolish.
Spot on.
But to be blindly loyal and not even consider offers (which fans and media seem to think is the way they should handle it) would just be foolish.
It’s business. It’s not personal. People can’t distinguish that.
Sports teams, to us, are personal things. But it’s their jobs. It’s their livelihood. It’s their business.
What if Miami comes to Frank after the season and offers him $2.5 million a year? Do you think he would dismiss it out of hand? Of course not. It would be a legitimate threat. What if Billy Donovan leaves Florida in five years or so, Frank has lead us to several straight NCAA tournaments, and he’s considered a legitimate candidate? Of course he’d entertain it.
When you sit on the couch with your wife and discuss your plans for the future, maybe sometimes the subject of different locations come up. For instance, my wife and I talk all of the time about how we’d like to maybe look at living in San Diego or Seattle some day. Do we like where we are? Yeah. Do I like my current job? Most definitely. However, if an opportunity was presented to me in one of those locations, would it give me pause? Sure.
Bring on the Cats
"Without getting into specifics, my exit involves a McFlurry machine and a video tape of risque commercials from overseas." -- Jack Donaghy
I vote for San Diego
I grew up there, it is a wonderful city.
One problem though is that the school system is very much based on how much money you have. The public schools are by and large overrun with students and not enough money to handle it. As such, essential services go underfunded.
If you can afford to send kids to the richer schools, you should be fine though.
But if kids aren’t an issue it is an absolutely amazing place to live.
Forward into Battle
by ChrisP Wildcat on Mar 4, 2011 9:33 AM CST up reply actions
Roy Williams
and UNC anybody?
'Fact. Bears eat beets. Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica.' --Jim Halpert
I think I would have preferred he stay at KU
I don't measure a man's success by how high he climbs but how high he bounces when he hits bottom. - General George S. Patton
I don't disagree with most of that
I just have a problem seeing that Arkansas is that school for CMA. (Note: I’m writing this AFTER he told the Columbia Tribune that he intends on retiring at Missouri, and you wrote your comment before, but I don’t think that affects what I’m going to say here.)
He’s from Birmingham, AL.
He’s an alum of Tulsa
He was an assistant of Nolan Richarson’s at Tulsa and Arkansas.
He has already coached at UAB, leaving them for Missouri. He has already turned down a reported big money offer from Alabama and from Georgia, so the SEC/Southeast of the US is obviously not a huge draw for him. If he was attracted to “returning home”, his opportunity has come and he let it pass.
He has received an offer from the University of Nike Oregon, and he stuck with Missouri. Missouri has made it clear that they’re not paupers, but not many schools have the donor pocketbooks of a motivated Oregon. So, if he was looking for a big payday, his opportunity has come and he let it pass.
I don’t see any logical reason he’d go to Tulsa, they don’t have the money or the tradition to lure him away from a BCS conference school that is a regular contender (let’s face it, Kansas is THE big dog in the Big 12, but Missouri, K-State, OU and Texas all are legitimate choices to challenge them in any given year). So, the allure of going to his alma mater is past him. The chance for that was either 5 years ago or when his career is on the downswing.
As far as Arkansas goes, he’s not an alum, he’s not from there. The only connection is being a part of the National Champion team there. I can see the appeal for THEM to get him, but I don’t see a huge appeal for him. It’s not like Nolan just retired after a great, long relationship with UA. He was hastily shown the door and pretty clearly sees the administration and donors there as a bunch of ingrates. It would not surprise me if CMA harbors a grudge against them for their treatment of his mentor. I could see him going there if the money was right, but he’s turned down big money, and it’s not like Mizzou is paying him in jellybeans.
Rational Mizzou Talk, whether you like us or not.
For as turbulent as things have been with CK
A nice little “thank you” note from him to K-state.
"Nor yet in Dell?"
Not the most eloquent thing I've read, but I think it adds to the charm
Good for him. I’m sure he has an international opportunity in front of him. However, I can only think back to last year and the off-season and wonder what happened to the guy with the NBA talent who did so much in the tourney. Maybe he’s coming back, but I can’t believe he’ll be drafted at this point. I find that sad.
I don't measure a man's success by how high he climbs but how high he bounces when he hits bottom. - General George S. Patton
Yes, Jake should have his jersey hung in the rafters.
I think Meek nailed it. I hope the CJ can keep him around.
I don't measure a man's success by how high he climbs but how high he bounces when he hits bottom. - General George S. Patton
I haven't commented on the Jake thing, but my thought is this...
I want Michael Beasley and Jacob Pullen to have their jerseys retired together. Both of those guys were a part of the 2007 class that reignited Kansas State basketball, albiet in different ways.
Michael was an absolute phenom that took the nation by storm, broke numerous single season records (nationally and at KSU), and he was the first true face of our turnaround.
Jacob was the four year stalwart, the consistent presence, and the man that carried the torch Beasley passed as the face of the program.
You can go up and down the list of players that Furnace made in his post, but you’d be hard pressed to argue that if it weren’t for Beasley and Pullen, Kansas State basketball may still be as irrelevant as it was five years ago before Bob Huggins came here and recruited them.
Bring on the Cats
"Without getting into specifics, my exit involves a McFlurry machine and a video tape of risque commercials from overseas." -- Jack Donaghy
That's the truth
Pullen and Beasley saved KSU from the Basketball wilderness it had wandered into. They both deserve recognition for that, including having their jerseys retired.
They may not be top 5 on your list (or on your list at all if you disqualify the 1-and-dones) but what they did for the program has been undeniable and is just as worthy of the praise reserved for the top 5-10 greats, IMO.
Forward into Battle
by ChrisP Wildcat on Mar 4, 2011 2:25 PM CST up reply actions
Kentucky retired "The Unforgettables" for their contribution to the program back in the early 90's.
This is pretty much the same thing.
Bring on the Cats
"Without getting into specifics, my exit involves a McFlurry machine and a video tape of risque commercials from overseas." -- Jack Donaghy
Except these guys are legitimate candidates.
Bring on the Cats
"Without getting into specifics, my exit involves a McFlurry machine and a video tape of risque commercials from overseas." -- Jack Donaghy
Pullen yes, Beasley, not so much
Look, Beasly was a phenom on offense. That’s it. I just can’t see elevating his one year contribution to an equal status with others who were, in fact, WAY BETTER all around basketball players, and who gutted it out for 2 to 4 years to sustain some excellence. I’m not remotely in favor of doing anything to honor the one-and-done mentality. I think it is an absolute pox on college basketball. I don’t blame Beasley for taking the money – he used us and we used him. That was the implicit deal.
And again, I can’t argue with anyone who puts Pullen in the top 5, as of now. But would you still argue that if we had ended up at 7-9 in the conference this year, and in the NIT? I doubt it. Look, in early November I stated that Jake’s game against Xavier was the single “most courageous” game that I could remember by a Wildcat. So I think that is very respectful of Jake. I have LIVED through a final four loss in 1964, countless sweet 16 and elite 8 disappointments. We’ve had a lot of really good basketball players here. Long drought, yes. But in the excitement of now, don’t disrespect the many others who do make us different than the Nebraskas, TexTech, and Colorados of this world.
oh hail the Purple and White
Not so fast my friend....
I really don’t disagree with any of this….but…there is an advantage to raising B-Easy to the rafters. When you’re making that kind of cheddar you may want to “thank” your alma matter. If it were me, I’d have a hard time saying no when I’m at a ceremony in my honor. Soon (when they get new contracts) we need to honor Eric Stonestreet, KSU alum on a crazy popular sticom Modern Family. Soon enough he’ll be making $1MM and episode (think Friends, Seinfeld, etc.) I’d be happy to name the BTF after either…we only $3.2MM more.
What I don't understand, though,
is you still put Denis up there, with only two years of contributions. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t have a problem with ranking Denis highly, but Beasley was THE reason we came out of the “wilderness” during his year here.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 4, 2011 4:24 PM CST up reply actions
Pullen fun fact
Got this off good old twitter
He is the only player in the history of the Big 12 to have-
2,000+ pts
400 assists
300 boards
200 steals
"To all the fake fans that just jump on and off the bandwagon who think we suck go cheer for somebody down the road then" -JP
That's impressive
granted, it’s not like the Big 12 has the tradition of the ACC or Big 10, but there have been quite a few really frickin good players come through this part of the country in the last 15 years or so.
Rational Mizzou Talk, whether you like us or not.
As far as I'm concerned, the last word on the BYU player suspension
Click here because the link is huge.
I don't measure a man's success by how high he climbs but how high he bounces when he hits bottom. - General George S. Patton
Not sure that's the final word
It seems like all kinds of former BYU students are coming out of the woodwork with their take on the situation. This guy doesn’t think the Honor Code is nearly as important as the other author.
We'll carry the banner high!
Bring On The Cats
by TB on Mar 4, 2011 6:58 PM CST up reply actions
That confirms a lot of what I was thinking.
I went to a Christian college for a time right after high school. They had a similar code, that was rarely, if ever, enforced unless people ratted on each other.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 4, 2011 8:52 PM CST up reply actions
It's very difficult for me not to comment on this in a snarky and offensive way, but I will abstain (Huh huh huh)...
What I will say is that I’d love for Mr. Davies to consider transferring to Kansas State.
So, Brandon, if you get this, give Mr. Martin a call. He swears a lot, and he drinks a lot of caffeine, but we don’t care if you have sex with your girlfriend. We don’t care if you have sex with someone else’s girlfriend. We would love for you to bring your talents to Kansas State.
Bring on the Cats
"Without getting into specifics, my exit involves a McFlurry machine and a video tape of risque commercials from overseas." -- Jack Donaghy
And--ironically enough--he'll care enough about you to not splash your private business all over the airwaves.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 4, 2011 9:00 PM CST up reply actions
I read TB's link, and I agree 100% with the author.
This was a PR move by BYU. Either they dismiss him immediately and make themselves look virtuous, or they prevent themselves from looking less virtuous by dragging it out.
Davies got screwed (har har har), and the fact that they made this public…well, if it were me, I’d sue.
Bring on the Cats
"Without getting into specifics, my exit involves a McFlurry machine and a video tape of risque commercials from overseas." -- Jack Donaghy
This is exactly the point I was trying to make earlier
But I lacked the eloquence to properly enunciate my point.
Forward into Battle
by ChrisP Wildcat on Mar 5, 2011 11:45 AM CST up reply actions
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