Why Frank Martin > Bill Self
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 2:05 PM CDT
in Men's Basketball
Email
Print
I've made no secret here of my respect for Bill Self. He's no Frank Martin, but I've always liked the guy anyway. That's beginning to change a bit, as I read what he's been saying about Robinson and the Morris twins leaving early for the draft. After initially making the obligatory "Kids need to do what is best for their families" comment, he proceeded to say the following things about three of the best big men in the Big 12 this year:
On Robinson, who is projected to go in the top half of the first round: "He has the most room to improve. He can take a leap like Markieff did this year..." [This despite the fact that the kid desperately needs to start making money to support his family.]
On Marcus Morris, the Big 12 POTY: "Marcus needs to improve his perimeter skills. He needs to be a three." What can be said in defense of this quote? The kid is the best non-Jake player in the league! He can work on his perimeter skills in the NBA. His stock will never be higher than it is right now.
Not directly about Markieff Morris, but seems to have been directed that way, when Self claims that before a kid should leave, he should have 4-5 teams in the lottery interested in them, saying there "Should be backup plans" and trying to spread fear about guys leaving early with an imminent NBA lockout.
All of this smacks of desperation, and I don't remember Frank doing anything even close to that when Beasley and Walker were making their decisions. I think Self is staring a potential 11-7 conference record in the face, and is trying to scare these three kids into sticking around when they shouldn't. It bothers me to see this from a coach I always kind of respected.
236 comments
|
1 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Excellent post.
This is nothing new, BTW: Supporting evidence from YouTube.
And not only did Frank not try to talk Mike or Bill into staying, but he practically pushed Mike out the door when he was having second thoughts and Jake was begging him to stay for “unfinished business.”
Which is one more reason I respect him so much. Frank could have mortgaged the kid’s future by convincing him to come back, and it probably would have meant the difference between the NIT bid we did earn and an NCAA Tournament bid we probably would have earned, but what if Mike had been hurt? What if damaged his stock in so doing? I appreciate Frank’s honesty to his kids, even if it hurts the team in the short term.
Yeah, Mike was never going to be hotter than he was after that season.
Now Billy, I think, could have benefited had Frank talked him into staying. Had he come back, shown himself completely healthy, and more consistent, I think he could’ve been a top 20 pick. Still, from what I’ve heard about his family situation, I completely understand why he wanted to go make money right away.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions
agree with the Bill reference
thought he coulda jacked up his stock in year 2, and left just fine.
"Nor yet in Dell?"
Not sure I would go as far as saying Self is a jerk...
I would more look at his body of work as opposed to some comments made recently after a tough loss. I still think he is probably a pretty good guy and you have to appreciate the job he has done with the program in Lawrence even if there have been some questionable actions mixed in…compared to other top tier programs they seem pretty clean – mostly character issues.
Good write up though…food for thought for sure.
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
Also, I certainly like Frank much more so the title is completely accurate.
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by mac attack ict on Mar 29, 2011 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Didn't say he was a jerk.
Just said I’d lost some respect for him as he tries to talk kids out of going into the draft, when doingn so would set them for life.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions
I know - I put words into your mouth in trying to summarize...
I am completely on board if Bill Self continues that line of reasonsing moving forward, but won’t hold it against him for the next week or so.
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by mac attack ict on Mar 29, 2011 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Sure Robinson needs to make money for his sister, but isn't she being taken care of reasonably well now?
As far as the Morri, if they want to be top-10 picks they should stay, but if they want to leave, he’s pointing out what they can improve. I think that’s fine.
Mike was special, and everyone knew that. If you’re going in the top 3, GO! I feel the same thing about Luck at Stanford. If you’re going to go at the very top of the draft, and get a guaranteed contract that could set you for life, you go.
Walker probably should have stayed, but I guess he did what was best for him.
I don't measure a man's success by how high he climbs but how high he bounces when he hits bottom. - General George S. Patton
I think that any coach who tries to talk a sure-fire first-rounder out of leaving
is doing his player a disservice, when that kid is from a family that needs the money badly.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions
How many sure-fire first-rounders flame out after a few years
And how many of them still have that money? I’m no fan of Bill Self and I certainly don’t encourage any action that will keep the Morris twins around, but sometimes even the big time players just aren’t ready to take the next step. I think this whole argument is a reach. I frankly wish more players would stay in school longer just to gain a little more experience and maturity before making the jump.
"Smell the perfume but don't drink it because it might kill you." Erin Andrews recounting advise from Gary Pinkel
Even flameout first-rounders are set for life, if they manage their money at ALL.
I have a bigger problem when kids who are borderline first-rounders declare early, because then you’re guaranteed NOTHING.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Ha - nobody in this situation manages their money well.
Unless you count cars and jewelry as a good investment….
Surgeon General's Warning: K-State-Mizzou basketball may increase the risk of high blood pressure. Please consult your doctor prior to watching any of these games.
That's not always true.
I don’t have the links at my fingertips, but I’ve read several stories about NBA/NFL “flameouts” who managed their initial $10 million guaranteed (or whatever) well, took care of their families, and are living comfortable lives now.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions
The one and done's though?
I can easily see many of the four-year college players take care of their money. And this is all a hunch – because you don’t typically hear the stories of the flameouts who take care of their money.
Surgeon General's Warning: K-State-Mizzou basketball may increase the risk of high blood pressure. Please consult your doctor prior to watching any of these games.
I can't find the article on GoogleNews right now,
but I’m pretty sure that Shaun Livingston is one example of why the “stay in college” crowd is wrong sometimes. He might have even been one of the high schoolers that the holier-than-thou talking heads at ESPN derided for jumping straight to the pros. Anyway, he had a horrific knee injury, in what would have been like his second or third year of college, but was instead the second or third year of his career. If that had happened at college, he would have never even been drafted.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 5:55 PM CDT up reply actions
He would be a good example
I grew up with Shaun, were from the same town and played on the same youth basketball and football teams.
He was just a little better than me
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 5:56 PM CDT up reply actions
I was just talking about managing money once they get into the pros.
Whether or not to jump is a different story.
Surgeon General's Warning: K-State-Mizzou basketball may increase the risk of high blood pressure. Please consult your doctor prior to watching any of these games.
We can play this game all day long
Yes, you could blow out a knee staying another year in college, but you could also get hit by a bus. Yes, some guys can manage the sudden wealth and some can’t. In the end, some guys are ready to move on and some aren’t. I think their coach is probably the best person to make that evaluation, even if their motives are sometimes selfish.
"Smell the perfume but don't drink it because it might kill you." Erin Andrews recounting advise from Gary Pinkel
I think if a guy is going to get drafted in the first round,
and the money situation they come from is very tough, the coach has an obligation to encourage them to do it. As for your “hit by a bus” example, not a whole lot of basketball careers are ended by bus collisions. Many MANY basketball careers ARE ended by injury.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 30, 2011 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions
From Bill Walker on Twitter awhile back.....
And hes “only” getting like 850k this year——
“a lockout may come, but I’ve been saving money since I first came in!!! nothing last forever but to some that’s a concept they can’t grasp”
Then he said—- “it’s not about being cheap, it’s about knowing where I come from. just makes me humble!”
I have no idea what inspired him saying that stuff but he did….
"To all the fake fans that just jump on and off the bandwagon who think we suck go cheer for somebody down the road then" -JP
I love Billy Walker,
in a very notgay kind of way, but still.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 5:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Not that there's anything wrong with that....
But I wouldn’t put Bill in the potential ‘flameout" boat. He knew going in he’s not going to have had serious garaunteed money. Any athlete should have this mentality. It can be taken away from you in a hurry.
Surgeon General's Warning: K-State-Mizzou basketball may increase the risk of high blood pressure. Please consult your doctor prior to watching any of these games.
I'm glad that Billy's managing his money well.
I was worried about that once he didn’t get the guaranteed first-round contract. But with the knee, and his financial situation with his family and all, I understood declaring early.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 6:12 PM CDT up reply actions
I didnt bring him up for "flameout" reasons
I was just reading about managing money, etc and remembered seeing this stuff. I just thought it was pretty level headed for a guy thats 23ish.
"To all the fake fans that just jump on and off the bandwagon who think we suck go cheer for somebody down the road then" -JP
Actually most guys who go later do better, from an article I read
They see that don’t have a TON of money, and they need to be smart.
Its the guys who go early and the Antoine Walkers who keep saying “hey I have a 90 million contract” so they are more prone to give to friends, buy gifts, buy crap they don’t need, etc etc etc and don’t realize the error until its too late.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:17 PM CDT up reply actions
But keep in mind
that being set for life now is different than it was a decade ago. In 2001, I could still take $10M (a little over $6M after taxes, most likely) and earn $360K a year off it (again, after taxes) without too much effort, knowledge, or need to trust a financial planner.
Now, you’re lucky to be able to earn $120K a year off an initial $10M after all is said and done unless you really know what you’re doing, or can find someone trustworthy to handle your investments. Now, sure, I could do that no problem by myself, ‘cause I’ve never been one to waste money on stupid shit. But if I was also trying to support my mom and dad and the siblings I don’t have and whatever… well, no. $120K a year wouldn’t cut it.
(Obviously, there’s a reason I twice made reference to trusting other people to handle your money; we’ve seen way too many instances of athletes getting fleeced because they don’t really have any clue what those advisers are doing, or even should be doing.)
My new blog: Those Other Guys. Critiques welcome.
Plus, if staying a year has increased financial benefits...
I mean its only a year. I know that sounds weird, but think about it this way:
If coming back for one more season results in 15 million more guaranteed, a better signing bonus, etc.. then is it worth it to wait a year?
Blake Griffin could have gone after his freshman year. Instead he returned a year, was the top pick, and his contract as a result had a lot more money guaranteed. I know this is one example, and there are countless examples for both sides of the argument, but I think arguing “he can get money now he needs to go now” is a bit short-sided, especially with the potential for more money in one year.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 8:27 PM CDT up reply actions
None of those three have Blake Griffin upside.
And the downside is HUGE—to go from at least $10mil guaranteed (most likely scenario) to nothing, should an injury occur or regression take place, is too big a risk to take.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 8:30 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I can appreciate your "looking out for the kids"
But you’re not at all accurate here.
1. You’re making the same mistake many kids do. The second NBA contract is the big one. Develop and be ready to contribute and you make some real big money.
2. Players who are irrationally over-valued hurt their stock by coming back. Legitimate players do not. Julian Wright was over-valued and that’s why Bill sent him out so early.
Expected lottery picks should go. Expected first rounders have to make the best decision for them, and there’s an argument to either side. None of our guys are anything more than first-rounders this year. Come back, and not only are they better when they get there, but all of them have a legitimate chance to also become lottery picks.
by hiphopopotamus on Mar 29, 2011 7:27 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Every player drafted in the first round is guaranteed to be a millionaire.
For kids whose families don’t have money, they can be set for life, second contract or not.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 7:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Again, missing the point...
50-60 guys (at least) will be told they are guaranteed first-rounders. Only 30 of them will be. Darrell Arthur was told he was a lottery pick and about missed the first-round altogether. That’s a pretty big risk you’re running, particularly if you have a chance to improve your standing by coming back. I’m not saying they should all come back (and neither is Bill), but a couple mock drafts placing them in the first round isn’t the end of the discussion.
Secondly, if you or I came into a couple millions dollars in our twenties, we probably would be able to use that money for the rest of our life, although we would still have to be prudent in doing so.
When your family, friends, etc. are all counting on you, and you come in to a couple millions dollars that may have to last a very long time, it can go quickly, particularly if you, and those around you, aren’t used to handling much money, let alone that kind of money.
by hiphopopotamus on Mar 30, 2011 9:04 AM CDT up reply actions
This post is so wrong its not even funny
Self encouraged Chalmers to go pro despite knowing he wouldn’t be a high pick. He knew his game and stock wouldn’t be higher (after the miracle shot). He also encouraged Rush and Arther to go.
In fact, Self has a reputation of shooting the shit really damn straight with kids in terms of going pro. Its been known for a long time, a lot of articles have been written on it, and its a reason why a lot of top high school kids play for him.
If Self had the reputation you claim, he wouldn’t recruit like he does.
You are taking some quotes and angles and stretching the hell out of it to a “point” that is flat out wrong.
And Frank Martin > Bill Self…. really? Thats a laughable headline. Especially after the season KState had this year (weren’t you supposed to win the league? Who won it? We did? AGAIN? Whoa)
Shit happens when you win championships
One thing you might be forgetting
in the midst of your rage rant, is that the talent level that Self was both left with and continues to get, sets the bar considerably higher for KU in terms of what is expected from the players over the course of the season. In terms of the statement (I think) KSB was trying to make of Martin > Self was that he liked/respected Martin more than he did Self. As for the point you made as to Martin > Self = laughable…if we’re going off of pure achievement then yes, Bill Self has won more than Martin. And he’s done it by being almost guaranteed 5 and 4 stars every year. Martin has had success with 2 and 3 stars (and the occasional 4 and 5 thrown in). So while I still respect Self (and my opinion is that Self has to look out for the best interest of his team, not just his players, in which case I don’t have a problem with him convincing people to stay), I am just as sure that Martin would have equaled his accomplishments if KSU had the steady stream of McDonald All-Americans that KU has.
And to your last point, weren’t you supposed to make it to the final four? That’s what that little number 1 next to name means in the seeding, right? Who is in the Final? Oh, VCU? A mid-major beat you in the tournament? Again? Just like UNI? And Bradley? And Bucknell?
Yeah, taking potshots at another team regarding expectations is a double-edged sword my friend.
LOL at a KState fan making fun of our success
Yeah, we’ve choked a few times. Also won a whole lot. Won it all three years ago
… what have you done again?
Make fun of us for our failed achievements all you want. Its still 99 times better than what anyone else in our league has done
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 5:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Point < ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > KU Grad 98
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 6:01 PM CDT up reply actions
98? Jesus dude I'm not THAT old :)
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:03 PM CDT up reply actions
I resemble that remark!
B.S. Education, Kansas State University, May 1998.
Damn you, young ’uns! Get off my lawn!!!!
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Dude...
Not making fun of you…Pointing out that you can’t belittle a team on THEIR board about something and then get angry when they do the same thing to you.
And you completely sidestepped the point I was making…you know, the big paragraph above the little one you took offense to.
Also, your team did something…you didn’t. You don’t get to claim “us” and “we” in your claim of being winners.
I was objecting to the headline
Which I thought was a little ridiculous.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:03 PM CDT up reply actions
I think the text of the article explains what I meant by Martin>Self.
I wasn’t comparing wins and losses.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 6:06 PM CDT up reply actions
Self really didn't have a ton of talent that year though
He had Collins who was really good, Aldrich who was pretty good/on the verge of getting really good. Then he had:
Taylor as a freshman (scary)
Morningstar as a sophomore (…yeah)
Freshmen Morris twins (frightening as hell)
My point is, Self has never been afraid of a rebuilding year. He has embraced it, and still won the league with unproven guys. I don’t think he would be doing the same now.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions
According to Rivals:
2008:
Travis Releford – 4 Star
Marcus + Markieff Morris: Both 4 Stars
Tyshawn Taylor: 4 Stars
Mario Little: 4 Stars
2009:
Elijah Johnson – 5 Star
Thomas Robinson – 4 Star
Xavier Henry – 5 Star
2010:
Josh Selby: 5 Star
2011:
Nadir Thorpe – 4 Star
(Likely Ben McElmore) – 5 Star
I’d say that a “rebuilding” job is a lot easier when you have a stream of talent always coming in. Now, obviously it takes a good coach to make that talent mesh in the best possible way, but Self never had to deal with 2 star and 3 star prospects in his rebuilding job like Martin has had to. Again, I will say that Martin was helped considerably by the presence of Beasley and Walker…for that first year.
Yeah, but recruiting numbers can be misleading
In my opinion, few guys are really ready to contribute at a high level as freshman, especially at a KU-expectation level.
My overall point was, Self didn’t go out and do what K.Scott is claiming this go around back in 2008, and he ended up with a team that most picked to barely make the tournament, if that, in the preseason.
And your post about the good players strengthens my point. Self has seemingly rebuilt and reloaded easily and not shyed away from “rebuilding years.”
So why would he try to selfishly bring all his players back now
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:25 PM CDT up reply actions
I never made that point...
I don’t agree with KSB as to his original statement…Remember, I had a big paragraph that stated Self’s main focus is to his team first and foremost…That’s what coaches are paid to do, to make the best possible decision for their team. If Self feels that way with his players, then he’s doing what i would expect any coach to do.
Also, three players on the court that were good is insignificant when you have to put five out there.
Ok, but in 2009 Self had Collins, Aldrich and...
the rest wasn’t pretty, especially at that age (do you remember the twins as freshmen? It was frustration city in Lawrence)
Don’t get me wrong I think Martin is a good coach. My point is I think Self doesn’t get credit for having some great seasons when he hasn’t as much to work with. People say “well its KU” but that 2009 team… if you had told me before the year they were winning the league and making the Sweet 16 I would have thought you were nuts.
And its also why I don’t think Self is being Selfish (that line made me laugh) with his guys, because he has proven he can rebuild and win no matter what.
More to KSB’s point – why would Self get desperate now? He has never done this before. This is post national title Self, the guy is a God in Lawrence. Why pull this crap now? I could see it early on when WIlliams won a title and KU fans started getting pissy after the first round losses. I can’t see it now.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:35 PM CDT up reply actions
What bigs does he have next year, if all three go?
Withey? Seriously? Who is there?
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 6:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Justin Wesley,
and then it’ll have to be recruits. It could be ugly, no doubt. Yet somehow, I’ll be we end up winning the league.
That was...disappointing.
It could happen.
Self wins league titles. That’s just a fact.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 6:41 PM CDT up reply actions
until another team wins
KU should be picked to win the Big12(-2).
The time for calm and rational discourse is past, now is the time for senseless bickering -Anonymous the Younger
by Anon_the_younger on Mar 29, 2011 6:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Withey, who is awful
But Self is also currently in on some good players. He’ll get that Daniels guy (who is sick) if the Twins leave, and might get that Otto Porter guy too.
If all three left, I’d bet money Self grabs those two, who both look fairly solid.
Also, he plays Releford a ton at the four position while using a smaller lineup, and would likely do that a lot as well
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:40 PM CDT up reply actions
When I think of Withey
I think about a game this year where he got rejected by the rim on a dunk…. I was like no freaking way did that happen, your 7ft tall.
"To all the fake fans that just jump on and off the bandwagon who think we suck go cheer for somebody down the road then" -JP
Please don't remind me
That guy is all sorts of head shaking and palms-facing-upward-gesturing for me everytime he plays
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:46 PM CDT up reply actions
LOL
I am guessing you know exectly what play I am talking about?!
"To all the fake fans that just jump on and off the bandwagon who think we suck go cheer for somebody down the road then" -JP
Yes, yes I do
::throws up in mouth::
Not as bad as this one though: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCqTVtM7L80
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, the expectations for that team was very low...
But it likely shouldn’t have been for the talent you did had in place.
As to KSB’s point, the only thing I can think of is that he doesn’t think he’ll get any more big men to sign…and your offense kind of depends on having big men to run the hi-lo.
I doubt this though, because I’m sure there are big men wanting to sign with KU…you just may have to join the rest of us for a year and pick up some 3 star prospects.
We are in on two four stars
And have a four star already signed for the next class. If they left, we’d probably get the two were in now, and may get one anyway (Otto Porter)
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:41 PM CDT up reply actions
well if they have size or speed.
and like Kansas (the state), send ’em over to talk w/ Coach Martin.
…
The time for calm and rational discourse is past, now is the time for senseless bickering -Anonymous the Younger
by Anon_the_younger on Mar 29, 2011 6:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Porter's final is GTown, KU, Mizzou I think
Not sure on Daniels. Most thought he was signing with KU for sure, then he delayed. Many think he is waiting to see what the Twins do, which I would probably agree with
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:47 PM CDT up reply actions
That first year Martin had the second best player in the country
And Walker, who was really good, and some good young players. KState was what, an 11 seed in the tournament that year?
Good season, and you beat us (the eventual champs) but I’m not sure if it was a miracle and a “oh my God this guy is a phenomenal coach” moment. I would expect KSU to have the season they did with Beasley (who was disgusting) and Walker (who was pretty damn good)
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Can you name one player who started on that team other than those two and Jake?
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 6:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Pick me, Pick me!!!
But I am guessing its not aimed at me… dang it
"To all the fake fans that just jump on and off the bandwagon who think we suck go cheer for somebody down the road then" -JP
Well, beside those three, there's only 2 left,
but didn’t Clent Stewart start a bunch of games? And I think Blake Young started a bunch too, but I’m not positive.
That was...disappointing.
Only ones I remember are Stewart and Merriweather
And James Franklin… since I know him somewhat personally (high school)
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:36 PM CDT up reply actions
My point is,
the guys around those three were just dudes. The “just dudes” Self is able to plug in are McDs AAs. Ours are James Franklin.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 6:39 PM CDT up reply actions
And Jeff Hawkins
Who was the man. Also Kaun, Robinson, Jackson were 4 star guys, but not 5 star MCD All-Americans
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Not ALL are McDs AAs.
But when all the “just dudes” you point out are 3* and 4* guys, it kinda proves a different point than you might think.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 6:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Exactly. So if he has all these sweet players waiting to play
Why bend over backwards to trick our current players into staying?
A HA!
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Because...
Having someone who knows your offense and defense and can teach it to the new guys makes your job easier, and it makes the team better suited for competition. KU would be the prohibitive favorite to win it all if everyone stayed, and that level of success would translate over to other years when the new guys are able to step in and take the mantle.
And, he has no sure-fire bigs in the '11 class as of NOW.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 6:45 PM CDT up reply actions
As of now
But you’re going uphill if you don’t think they’ll grab a few quality guys. Until it doesn’t happen, best to assume it does
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:47 PM CDT up reply actions
But none will be Morris twin or T-Rob quality.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 6:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Not Morris or TRob of now
Niether was very good as a freshman though. They could end up being really good or better. You never know…
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Of course.
But my point is, if he can talk those three into staying, the Hawks will be WAY better next year. That’s kind of what struck me as a bit disingenuous about his remarks.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 6:52 PM CDT up reply actions
We would be
Then again, if he had talked Chalmers into staying (he went early second round) and Arthur (late first round) we likely would have been in the Final 4 again in what was a weak year for college basketball.
I feel like if he hasn’t done it in the past, especially before he won a title, I’m not sure why he would do it now. And based on the comments posted, I just can’t see enough there to sway me
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:56 PM CDT up reply actions
And Self has never run away from a rebuilding job
He didn’t try to convince ANYONE to stay after we won the title. He then lost 8 of his top 9 contributors from the year before. Think about that. Apart from Collins and Aldrich (who never played as a freshman) he lost EVERYONE from that title team.
He didn’t try to get guys to stay. He encouraged them all to go, knowing he wouldn’t have much if anything returning.
Oh yeah, he still went 14-2 in the Big 12, won it outright, and crashed the Sweet 16 (With Collins, Aldrich, and a ton of freshman and guys who had never played).
This example alone squashes everything you just wrote.
Shit happens when you win championships
No, it really doesn't.
There is absolutely no reason for him to try to discourage these three kids from going pro. None of them come from money, and all three are pretty much sure-fire first-rounders. Trying to get them to stay doesn’t speak well for him, in my view.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions
You make absolutely no sense
You say “I have a bigger problem when kids who are borderline first-rounders declare early, because then you’re guaranteed NOTHING.”
Then say you think it is crazy Self is cautioning these kids about the draft. None of these guys are top 5 picks and all of them could easily fall. Arthur fell into the 20’s when he went.
Beasley was a guaranteed top 5 pick, if not a guaranteed top two pick. No comparison.
KState fans are hilarious. Midway through the year half of you are openly questioning Martin’s job security and if he should still be the coach, and now he is such a stoic, honorable great coach, so much better than that shady Bill Self who is “selfishly” trying to get his players not drafted.
Please read my first comment again. It spells out all you need to know on Self, players getting drafted, etc. You don’t know what you’re talking about. Just let it go. You reached and it didn’t work. On to the next topic.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions
I was friends with Arthur's aunt when I worked in DFW.
He was still a first-rounder, and still got guaranteed money. The mocks I’ve seen on these three all have them as top 15 guys.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 5:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Mock drafts don't mean much at times
Some guys get projected to go around 10-12 and then fall to 22 (like Arthur did). You never know.
All three, especially Robinson, could go now and get drafted in that range. Or they could return and be guaranteed top 10 possibly.
The ONLY things people have written about Self on this subject is that he looks out for his players, does what he thinks is right, and tries to remain as neutral as possible.
Do some research. But none of this matters, next to three lines you decided to insanely twist to make your point.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:02 PM CDT up reply actions
I posted his quotes and my interpretation of them.
That’s what we do here. And my Martin>Self was not about accomplishments, but about what I think of them as men.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 6:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Well then I apologize for jumping to conclusions
I’ll get out my mat
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:06 PM CDT up reply actions
I would've thought that what I wrote in the actual article would have made that clear, but oh well.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 6:08 PM CDT up reply actions
I know, I'm arguing its a poor interpretation
Your welcome to interpret them any way you want, I’m just trying to point out that they don’t reflect Self’s history with guys going to the NBA, or what has been written / said about him many times.
I feel that you are casting him as a Pete Carrol with Mark Sanchez type, and I don’t find that to be true.
Just saying, from a guy whos followed the program as close as anyone, it seems to me time and time again, Self encourages guys to go when he feels they are ready and can’t improve their stock much (Rush, Arthur, Chalmers, etc) and these arguments are just a massive stretch.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Case in point:
Julian Wright? He jumped early at the perfect time for him. If he had stayed another year, he would not have been drafted in the lottery. He almost had to go after his sophomore year.
That was...disappointing.
Yep. Prime example
Self told him to jump because he knew Arthur was coming hard for a lot of his minutes. Wright went, got paid, does nothing in the NBA and is rich as hell
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:13 PM CDT up reply actions
That proves MY point a bit too, though.
…he knew Arthur was coming hard for a lot of his minutes.
That should figure ZERO in the equation of “jump/not jump.” Only recommending he jump because he knew he had someone to replace him doesn’t seem copasetic to me.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 6:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Thats not my point
He knew Wright’s draft stock would never be higher. He was a freak athlete, started that year, still had some mystery/upside/potential to him the NBA covets.
Had Wright came back, his draft stock would have decreased. He would have played less, probably not developed like many NBA scouts thought/ hoped.
He went when his stock was highest.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:19 PM CDT up reply actions
It wasn't Hey Julian, better go because I got someone better to play
It was “hey Julian, your stock probably isn’t ever getting higher, I’d go now.”
He did the same with Rush, Arthur and Chalmers when there was absolutely NO replacement for them, unless you want to count true freshman as suitable replacements (I sure as hell wouldn’t).
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:20 PM CDT up reply actions
So, if Arthur wasn't coming, do you think Self makes the same rec?
Based on what he’s saying about these big men, I’m just not sure.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 6:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Personally,
I don’t think Arthur’s commitment had much to do with Julian’s decision. In fact, I think there’s a decent chance that Julian’s decision was made totally separate from HCBS. Obviously, HCBS didn’t hold him back, but he makes it clear that it’s the player’s decision.
That was...disappointing.
I think Arthur factors in more with Julian though
Its hard for a guy to improve his draft status if someone else who plays his position is really good and going to get minutes. Its going to have an obvious affect on draft status
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:28 PM CDT up reply actions
And I think he IS "Pete Carrolling" those guys right now.
That’s all I’m saying. You don’t have to agree, of course. Diff’rent strokes for diff’rent folks…
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 6:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Also, I'm perfectly capable of deciding what to write about all by myself.
Thanks for the concern, though.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 5:58 PM CDT up reply actions
But you are taking simple quotes and just taking them to places that make no sense
I mean how does “Robinson has the most to improve. He could make a big leap next year” show a coach is trying to selfishly keep his players from going pro?
He is just telling the truth.
“Marcus needs to work on his perimeter game”
This is sabotaging draft position? This is Selfish??
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions
He is trying to get it in their heads to stay, when financially it makes no sense to stay.
There is SO much risk to staying, that the potential reward just isn’t worth it.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 6:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Don't think thats the case
Lets say Robinson tests the waters, finds out he is projected from 15-20th (which is generous based on some of the mock drafts I’ve seen). Great. He could go.
But lets say he comes back with no Morris twins, averages a double-double, refines his offensive game more, etc etc. Then he gets drafted sixth overall.
Then it was certainly worth staying.
Plus don’t forget the lockout playing a roll
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Let's say he comes back, blows a knee, struggles with injuries, and never gets drafted at all...
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 6:18 PM CDT up reply actions
That's not a coach's fault, though.
That crap happens. Nobody can predict it. BTW, it happened to Rush, and he ended up coming back and winning it all with KU, so even that’s not dispositive.
That was...disappointing.
But that's ALSO why, when a kid from a poor family has a really great shot at millions,
you don’t try to talk him into staying.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 6:21 PM CDT up reply actions
There's not a whole lot of wiggle-room in those quotes.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 6:25 PM CDT up reply actions
There isn't wiggle room in this:
“He has the most room to improve. He can take a leap like Markieff did this year…”
How in the world does this scream “HE MUST NOT GO PRO HE MUST RETURN”
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:30 PM CDT up reply actions
It sounds almost exactly like what Carroll said to Sanchez.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 6:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Nah, Carrol said
“Sanchez SHOULD STAY. He isn’t ready to go pro, he needs another year”
Self said “He has the most room to improve, he can take a leap”
Those two sound so different to me
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Except for the words "SHOULD STAY",
the meaning is exactly the same.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 6:39 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't get it.
As I posted below, was there anything in those quotes that is inaccurate?
That was...disappointing.
It's what he's trying to accomplish by saying them that's the problem.
If those three guys are 90% sure they are going to be first-rounders, they need to be gone. And hinting around that they still need to improve (even if the actual words you say are true) does a disservice to them, in my view.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 6:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Were KSU fans really questioning Martin's job security?
I never heard any of that, except from 2 co-workers who both happened to be KU grads. There was certainly some grumbling about some decisions, and obviously no one was happy with the results, but firing him?
There was some on this very own board
Nothing serious, but a lot of “I’m watching him very closely” and “he isn’t doing a good job” and a lot of similar stuff.
There was some if I remember, but then again I’d do the same if my team was like 2-6 in the Big 12 when we were predicted to win the league.
But then KSU went on a tear and finished 10-6 and that was the end of the crazy talk
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes.
Being a head coach has to stink. Unless you win it all every year, there will be unhappy fans.
The time for calm and rational discourse is past, now is the time for senseless bickering -Anonymous the Younger
by Anon_the_younger on Mar 29, 2011 6:46 PM CDT up reply actions
And theres been plenty of KU fans
the last two days who are saying Self is on the Hot seat….. KU alumi for what its worth
"To all the fake fans that just jump on and off the bandwagon who think we suck go cheer for somebody down the road then" -JP
Which is the stupidest damn thing I've ever heard!
Do these people not realize how HARD it is to win championships?!?
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 6:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Those people are idiots then
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:48 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree!!!
"To all the fake fans that just jump on and off the bandwagon who think we suck go cheer for somebody down the road then" -JP
Yeah, I think some people have a hard time telling the difference
between criticizing decision-making of a coach, and calling for that coach’s head.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 6:46 PM CDT up reply actions
No there were
And there were people calling for Self’s head after Bradley. Every fan base has crazy people.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, while I criticized a LOT early on in the conference season (maybe too much)
I made a point of saying that I was NOT calling for him to be fired.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 6:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Can you point to
a single recruit of Self’s (this year excepted) that he has advised against the player’s best interest? I know this is an inherently subjective topic, but I’m curious as to what you think.
That was...disappointing.
I based my article on these three young men.
I don’t know what he’s advised with regards to other players. I just didn’t like reading the quotes I was reading (from a KU twitter feed, no less) regarding these three guys.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 6:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, dare I say,
that’s a pretty small sample size to write a post like you did. I think it’s a stretch. I really do. And bottom line, I think what HCBS tells the media about a player matters very little when compared to what HCBS tells the actual player in his office, when microphones aren’t around, etc.
That was...disappointing.
But that's what bothers me about it.
If he’s down-talking their potential in PUBLIC, what kind of things is he saying behind closed doors?!? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a Self-hater. I just like him a bit less after seeing those quotes, that’s all. He’s still about 1 million spots above Scott Drew on the list of people I’d like to have a beer with! :)
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 6:23 PM CDT up reply actions
I think he's being realistic.
Did he say anything in the presser today that isn’t true? Does Marcus not need to work on his outside game? Would T-Rob not improve as a basketball player by having a Marcus-like year next season?
I get that the comments rubbed you the wrong way, but I’m not at all convinced he’s wrong in anything he said.
That was...disappointing.
Thank you
He is being honest with what the players need to work on to be better players, period. Not sure how it screams “they can’t go pro they must stay”
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:31 PM CDT up reply actions
It doesn't.
But it COULD start whispers out there, and cause their stock to fall, which would suck. It’s also not real cool, if it’s designed to get them doubting their decision or whatever.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 6:36 PM CDT up reply actions
If their draft stock is hurt by anything,
it’s gonna be by performance at the draft workouts and at private workouts with teams. What HCBS said today will have absolutely nothing to do with where they’re drafted. Period.
That was...disappointing.
I don't have a problem with the Robinson quote
But the Morri would be morons to come back. Unless they just want to stick together for another year before splitting up, in which case good for them.
Honestly i doubt these little quotes by Self are really going to make much of a difference. I would hope they would discuss this with their families, scouts, etc. to get a full picture.
the only issue with the Morris twins in the NBA
is their temper/reactions.
Otherwise they are prototypical NBA players.
The time for calm and rational discourse is past, now is the time for senseless bickering -Anonymous the Younger
by Anon_the_younger on Mar 29, 2011 6:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Issue?
Hell, doesn’t that make them MORE ready for the NBA?
Rasheed Wallace slowly nods his head
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:57 PM CDT up reply actions
I think Aldrich stayed the same
In terms of where he was drafted at. And his family needed help, so one could agrue that it wasnt in his best interest to stay that extra year…..
"To all the fake fans that just jump on and off the bandwagon who think we suck go cheer for somebody down the road then" -JP
Self wasn't tugging at Cole to stay though, from what I read
Cole wanted to go down as a legend and wanted a title. Plus I think he got his degree in three years, or got really close, and that played a roll as well
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:21 PM CDT up reply actions
I think you are correct here....
As soon as I hit post it started coming back to me a little bit…. BUT just to be a smart arse, Self could have said— dont risk getting hurt, get your degree with summer classes the next few yrs, now go get paid!!
"To all the fake fans that just jump on and off the bandwagon who think we suck go cheer for somebody down the road then" -JP
Is it 4/1?
seems like RCT on here, that’s not a compliment btw.
and in the NIT WSU, Kansas edition, is beating the WSU, Washington edtion.
The time for calm and rational discourse is past, now is the time for senseless bickering -Anonymous the Younger
by Anon_the_younger on Mar 29, 2011 6:36 PM CDT reply actions
WSU is playing very well
"To all the fake fans that just jump on and off the bandwagon who think we suck go cheer for somebody down the road then" -JP
Well the subject was a KU thread
And there are two RCT posters, and from my count 4 BOTC posters… so… no
And I hope WSU wins. I can’t stand WSU. WSU is a good program I can root for but I can’t stand WSU
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Subject was a KU topic, hence the thread I meant to say
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:39 PM CDT up reply actions
This argument is a stretch
Maybe he thinks they should stay because learning for a year from Danny Manning hasn’t hurt any KU bigs. On the other hand, leaving early (Julian Wright, Darrell Arthur) has limited the ability of some players to contribute and land the much more lucrative second contract.
by 2.1 seconds left on Mar 29, 2011 6:42 PM CDT reply actions
Neither of those two were going to make any more money by staying.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 6:48 PM CDT up reply actions
The fact that this comment thread is over 100
for a non-game reason and the bulk of the comments are from about 7 people is pretty mind-boggling…are we sure that we didn’t make fun of Nebraska in this?
No but I'm willing to start
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 6:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Allow me...
When your only options for a Saturday are watching Nebraska football and raping sheep, I’d be a Nebraska fan too.
Random Missouri Fan: Wait, what's the sheep look like?
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 6:54 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Hey, don't drag us into this
We have our own 2000 post issues at the moment.
"Smell the perfume but don't drink it because it might kill you." Erin Andrews recounting advise from Gary Pinkel
LOL!
I specifically exempt many (RMN members from my periodic mocking of Mizzou fans.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 30, 2011 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Nub jokes are easy,
but always fun!
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 6:53 PM CDT up reply actions
so WSU v WSU
Shockers have a 17 point lead at the half.
Not sure what to say about the game, every time the Cougars make a run the Shockers have an answer.
It is a toss up for me on the night cap. CU winning would be nice for the Big12 Pac12 but liked what I saw of the Tide the other night.
The time for calm and rational discourse is past, now is the time for senseless bickering -Anonymous the Younger
by Anon_the_younger on Mar 29, 2011 6:52 PM CDT reply actions
speaking of the tide
I bet both KSU and KU wish the had little Releford. That kid can ball
"To all the fake fans that just jump on and off the bandwagon who think we suck go cheer for somebody down the road then" -JP
YEah hes sick
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 7:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Do you remember why he ended up going there?
"To all the fake fans that just jump on and off the bandwagon who think we suck go cheer for somebody down the road then" -JP
Not sure, in terms of KU
I think KU looked at him, but there wasn’t a lot of PT available.
Plus, was he a high recruit? Four star PG according to Scout, but it appears only Alabama, Mizzou, Oklahoma and Tennessee offered him: http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=3245302
Not sure why. I wonder if he just wanted to get out of Big 12 country with his brother at KU, hence not going to OU or MU.
Travis will be a good player for us though, he started getting a lot of PT this year before he got hurt, and he will only be a junior next year. We have no choice but to play him heavily next season, but I think he will end up being solid. He is a good defender and super athletic, and his shot is getting better. Redshirting a year did wonders for his game
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 7:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Also appears he only visited OU and 'Bama
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 7:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Interesting.... thanks for the info
Also with Travis—- didnt he bulk up a little bit?? Seems like he did if I remember right.
"To all the fake fans that just jump on and off the bandwagon who think we suck go cheer for somebody down the road then" -JP
Main thing he did was get a shot
He was always lanky and athletic, fast as hell. He is an athletic freak, and you can see it in some of the asinine dunks he has done at KU (and thus crashed sports center’s top ten a few times).
He probably has added some muscle as most guys had, but he is also getting a jump shot. He couldn’t shot for sheet when he got to KU, and the year he redshirted, he reportedly just went to the gym every day and shot for hours. You could see it this year, he shot around 40% from three I believe. I’m excited to see what he does his junior and senior year.
Honestly, if it does pan out this way, I think our guard play is going to be pretty damn good next year. Could have this:
Taylor
Selby
Releford (born to play the wing).
with Elijah Johnson first guard off bench, followed by likely McElmore. Pretty solid.
Its the post players that frighten the hell out of me…
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 7:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Withey Power!!! :)
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 7:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Elijah off the bench?!?!
I guess one of them have to but that kid can flat jump outta the roof of the gym
"To all the fake fans that just jump on and off the bandwagon who think we suck go cheer for somebody down the road then" -JP
Well, Self could start him. That was my ideal lineup, with EJ still playing alot
Self played Releford at the 4 a lot, going with a small quick lineup. Its a disaster against teams like Texas, but it worked a lot at times.
If Robinson returns, Self likely goes small, and our starting lineup is:
Taylor
Selby
Johnson
Releford
Robinson
Small as hell, but athletic as hell. Withey, McElmore and other freshman key reserves.
Not great, but that lineup still wins games. If Selby takes the next step (at the very least, he’ll be better) and Robinson and Taylor continue to improve, its a solid team.
Theres no way to sugar coat around it though, losing the Morris twins is going to hurt like hell.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 8:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Alabama's coach used to work with Martin, didn't he?
I guess I don’t really care who wins, either.
Yeah, I want Alabama to win because Frank is friends with Anthony Grant.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 6:58 PM CDT up reply actions
using slate as open game thread
The time for calm and rational discourse is past, now is the time for senseless bickering -Anonymous the Younger
by Anon_the_younger on Mar 29, 2011 7:13 PM CDT reply actions
Well, this ended up pretty much exactly how I thought it would.
Bring on the Cats
"If there was a run on us, and the crowd gets goin' nuts, what are we going to do? How are we going to respond? How tough are we? Do we have some Jacob Pullen in us?" - Jimmy Dykes
by Panjandrum on Mar 29, 2011 8:17 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Ah, come on! It was kinda fun, and no one cussed out anybody or anything!
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 8:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, basketball season is over
Baseball hasn’t started, and I’m not a huge baseball guy anyways. Might as well have fierce debate on the internet. What the hell else are we going to do?
Its too bad the conference realignment saga hit when it did and didn’t hit now. Man, that stuff had me wrapped up for days…
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 8:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Whoever wins is awarded 1,007 interwebz.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 8:30 PM CDT up reply actions
No, I know. I just thank God this hasn't hit the Phog yet.
Once it does, I’m indiscriminately swinging the banhammer like I’m fucking Thor.
Bring on the Cats
"If there was a run on us, and the crowd gets goin' nuts, what are we going to do? How are we going to respond? How tough are we? Do we have some Jacob Pullen in us?" - Jimmy Dykes
by Panjandrum on Mar 29, 2011 8:32 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Our guys had to do that after we lost Sunday
Texas fans and other randos infiltrated the board to talk crap. It was maddening!
I try to give that state a chance… and then I meet people from it…
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 8:33 PM CDT up reply actions
well some of that was because of the rando ku fans at the game
some of the ku fans in SA were not good sports according to the person I know that attended.
Unfortunately … one bad fan can cause things to spiral downhill quickly.
The time for calm and rational discourse is past, now is the time for senseless bickering -Anonymous the Younger
by Anon_the_younger on Mar 29, 2011 8:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, but its understandable in some regards
I mean, we should have won and we should be in the Final 4 too. I’d be mad as hell, but I wouldn’t do anything really really stupid. Just try not to talk to people, thats my sense.
A lot of KU fans feel we don’t get the respect we deserve on a national sense, and hate the potshots from Mizzou and KState because how dare they insult us? Not saying this is how I feel necessarily, but a general viewpoint.
As a result, a lot of KU people overreact to losses, and if someone gives them a little crap, kablamoo.
I know I’m guilty of it too. Its hard, when your team is good and so close and then you lose to a freaking 11 seed. As a result, when a Mizzou guy at work gave me crap I just read him off in a “your team just lost its coach, got swept by us again, and has never been to the final 4. Yet you’re going to give me crap”
Definitely not excusing poor behavior, but I see the ingredients to cook up an angry-recipe, fi that makes sense
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 8:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Ditto everything you just typed. For multiple reasons.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 8:44 PM CDT up reply actions
this was before KU lost
not after.
And I’ve been there on the folks rubbing in a loss to me, so I understand the point of view.
The time for calm and rational discourse is past, now is the time for senseless bickering -Anonymous the Younger
by Anon_the_younger on Mar 29, 2011 8:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Cocky fans, many people thought we'd blow them out of the water
But I learned long ago, to not celebrate until its over. Too many tournament losses for me to get cocky before a game
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 8:54 PM CDT up reply actions
It kinda already has
someone said something about hey KSB in the post you wrote…..
"To all the fake fans that just jump on and off the bandwagon who think we suck go cheer for somebody down the road then" -JP
That's on RCT, not the Phog.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 8:37 PM CDT up reply actions
RCT are the sane ones.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 8:37 PM CDT up reply actions
:;doing everything to make this less true::
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 8:39 PM CDT up reply actions
just figured it was the same thing
Not up to date on all the boards out there…. My bad
"To all the fake fans that just jump on and off the bandwagon who think we suck go cheer for somebody down the road then" -JP
No worries.
Just thought I’d let you know. The Phog is like their GoPowerCat.com, I believe.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 8:43 PM CDT up reply actions
I've never gone on it, I'm too afraid to
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 8:44 PM CDT up reply actions
I stopped by today...
I opened the “Big 12 did not prepare us for the NCAA Tourney” thread. Then left.
by WillieWannabe on Mar 29, 2011 9:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Did you disinfect yourself after leaving?
I’ve heard that the dumb over there is actually contagious.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 9:22 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah I'm tired of that argument
Would KU be more “tournament ready” if it was in the Big East? Maybe. But its not the good teams we lose to in the tournament most often, its the smaller schools. And we play like 20 of them in the noncon, usually a few tournament types as well, so I don’t buy that argument really
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 10:20 PM CDT up reply actions
You would have been more tournament ready if you were in the Colonial Athletic Association, apparently.
The Horizon League and Missouri Valley Conference also prepare you well. Or so I hear.
Phog.net is the most popular, and subsequently, most retarded message board for KU fans.
Just like Tigerboard has all of the idiot Mizzou fans, and GoPowercat, by and large, houses most of our idiots.
Bring on the Cats
"If there was a run on us, and the crowd gets goin' nuts, what are we going to do? How are we going to respond? How tough are we? Do we have some Jacob Pullen in us?" - Jimmy Dykes
I visited GoPowercat once.
Only once.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 8:45 PM CDT up reply actions
I was there for ten years...
And don’t get me wrong…there were some fantastic people there that I miss consorting with, but on the whole, the constituency and some of the old guard posters that people fawned over were pretty unbearable.
Bring on the Cats
"If there was a run on us, and the crowd gets goin' nuts, what are we going to do? How are we going to respond? How tough are we? Do we have some Jacob Pullen in us?" - Jimmy Dykes
Yeah, I clicked around for about 30 minutes or so before leaving.
It seemed like the idiotic-to-useful ratio was at least 2-to-1—maybe higher. And that wasn’t even during bad times or anything.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 9:25 PM CDT up reply actions
I read one thread during football season
not sure there was need to return.
The time for calm and rational discourse is past, now is the time for senseless bickering -Anonymous the Younger
by Anon_the_younger on Mar 29, 2011 9:27 PM CDT up reply actions
oh, this will be fun
I’m getting the popcorn ready.
The time for calm and rational discourse is past, now is the time for senseless bickering -Anonymous the Younger
by Anon_the_younger on Mar 29, 2011 8:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Hey KSB a few points
Where have you seen Robinson projected in the top half of the first round? Everything I have seen says late first to early second (non-guaranteed). That would be enough to make me stick around.
Then you say Marcus’s stock could never be higher. I think with another year Marcus could work himself into a top 10 pick. Right now every projection I see has him anywhere from 13-20. Could be at least a 1 million dollar difference
It's not that I'm lazy; it's that I just don't care. (#739)
Here's the downside to that...
College basketball is different than football. Instead of maturing another year, the NBA scouts use it to tear your game apart.
The second you are even remotely considered a lottery pick, you just fucking go before some guy clowns you and the word is out that you have ‘bad lateral movement’ or you ‘struggle with quicker defenders’.
Marcus is the Big 12 player of the year and a late lottery pick. Markieff is Robin Lopez.
Their stock will never be higher. They need to go. Now.
Bring on the Cats
"If there was a run on us, and the crowd gets goin' nuts, what are we going to do? How are we going to respond? How tough are we? Do we have some Jacob Pullen in us?" - Jimmy Dykes
by Panjandrum on Mar 29, 2011 8:40 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think the twins are gone so its no use arguing it
However, I think Robinson is going to stay. Self IS right, his stock and draft position could absolutely skyrocket, ESPECIALLY with the twins gone and he being THE guy down low
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 8:45 PM CDT up reply actions
If Robinson doesn't need to support his family, he should stay.
The only downside is that he won’t have much post help, so teams will make his life a living hell.
Bring on the Cats
"If there was a run on us, and the crowd gets goin' nuts, what are we going to do? How are we going to respond? How tough are we? Do we have some Jacob Pullen in us?" - Jimmy Dykes
Yeah, when Withey's your "bodyguard"...
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 8:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Jeff Withey DISAGREES SON
… sigh ….
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 8:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Great minds, and all that...
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 8:47 PM CDT up reply actions
A buddy of mine disagreed with my quote about him before the season so much, he put it on his dry erase board.
It read, “Withey is a slug. He’s worthless.”
I don’t think he disagrees anymore.
Bring on the Cats
"If there was a run on us, and the crowd gets goin' nuts, what are we going to do? How are we going to respond? How tough are we? Do we have some Jacob Pullen in us?" - Jimmy Dykes
by Panjandrum on Mar 29, 2011 8:49 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm probably being too hard on him
I mean, the guys had injuries often since coming to KU, and he has a high recruit and has at times shown potential.
He could be pretty solid, I mean he is only a sophomore. Kaun was the same way when he was young and he ended up turning into a pretty damn solid big man. He was also a big, ripped guy.
Withey could be, at the very least, a servicable average Big 12 center. Hell, if he gave us that next year it’d be a tremendous boost.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 8:53 PM CDT up reply actions
I kinda disagree here
I think he will always be a late first round pick. It will be to a team that has good bigs already that may be getting a little older. He cant step out and shoot the 3 so that will always limit him. From my “expert” view he will never be a step out and shoot the 3 guy. I just dont see a team that is in the Lottery taking him to build a team. I may be way off base but thats just my spill
"To all the fake fans that just jump on and off the bandwagon who think we suck go cheer for somebody down the road then" -JP
And, if you're right, then I say, "Get out, and go make your money, son!"
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 8:51 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't think he'll ever be a top ten pick...
But he can hang around the mid-first if he develops some range.
Marcus’ draft stock skyrocketed when he showed his range from deep. Markieff will just get a ride because he’s a 6’9" rebounding machine.
Bring on the Cats
"If there was a run on us, and the crowd gets goin' nuts, what are we going to do? How are we going to respond? How tough are we? Do we have some Jacob Pullen in us?" - Jimmy Dykes
Stat wise, Markieff is the better three point shooter... At least he was for a while
He doesn’t shoot a lot, but he has that top of the key quick three pointer down really well…
A few people think Markieff might actually return while Marcus goes pro. I think they’re both gone… but it’d be interesting
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 8:56 PM CDT up reply actions
He is an athletic as hell guy though
Gobbles up boards. NBA teams always have a use for guys like that. The Heat could really use a Thomas Robinson…
I do think another year would help. Danny Manning really helps these guys improve offensively, and it would pay off. Plus he’d start and play as much as he possibly could, which would only help.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 8:58 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree with this
but I still think his draft stock stays the same which in turn doesnt effect dollars. The 3 ball is the only thing that can truely help him IMO. And over the last two years he hasnt shot a single one.
Side note- per game – 14.6min . 7.6pts. 6.4 boards. this year.
"To all the fake fans that just jump on and off the bandwagon who think we suck go cheer for somebody down the road then" -JP
I'll look around a bit.
I could swear I read somewhere that Robinson’s ADP was something like 19. With the Morris twins, the downside of a Bill Walker-type injury (from his RS Freshman year) derailing things is too high, at least for me.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 8:40 PM CDT up reply actions
One more
You also say Robinson “desperately needs to start making money to support his family”.
By family I assume you me sister, because that is all he has left. She is with her dad now, and has a college scholarship fund setup that is doing amazing by all accounts. He gets a scholarship check every month and is fine. If he makes the jump, goes second round, and is cut, then what?
It's not that I'm lazy; it's that I just don't care. (#739)
He won't get cut, even if he falls to the second.
T-Rob has got some game.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 29, 2011 8:42 PM CDT up reply actions
agreed, but the money difference
between mid first and early second is substantial
It's not that I'm lazy; it's that I just don't care. (#739)
Robinson may stay. I think he's fallen off of a lot of draft boards after disappearing against VCU.
Taylor, Selby, and Robinson are a great core. You better get busy on the posts, though.
Bring on the Cats
"If there was a run on us, and the crowd gets goin' nuts, what are we going to do? How are we going to respond? How tough are we? Do we have some Jacob Pullen in us?" - Jimmy Dykes
He disappeared because he was on the bench with foul trouble.
Kinda hard to fault a guy for that in his draft stock. He’s still a fricking beast.
And KU’s single-worst performance of the season came with him unavailable. Tells you something.
Very true.
A game where we needed energy and our energy guy was chained to the bench.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
I thought I read somewhere
That she (his sister) was with the twins mom at KU?!
"To all the fake fans that just jump on and off the bandwagon who think we suck go cheer for somebody down the road then" -JP
don't think so
was an idea at one point though
It's not that I'm lazy; it's that I just don't care. (#739)
tried to google
and came up with where I got that. They said it during the game the other day. Which people are saying that isnt correct
"To all the fake fans that just jump on and off the bandwagon who think we suck go cheer for somebody down the road then" -JP
I've seen late first round as best case scenario
But he could move up in draft workouts. Everyone here seems to forget that THAT is where you can really move up or down. Turn heads in a workout, you could move up 5-6 spots. TRob may do that with his physical demeanor and skills, or he could slide when NBA scouts see how unpolished his post moves and offensive skill set are. You never know.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 29, 2011 10:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Wow, looks like I missed out on all the fun...
Forward into Battle
by ChrisP Wildcat on Mar 30, 2011 10:05 AM CDT reply actions
Chad Ford has all 3 in the first round...
with TRob the highest rated of the 3
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft/results/top100/_/year/2011/set/1
The link is behind a paywall.
Where does he have each of them going?
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 30, 2011 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Wow.
If that’s true, then they all SHOULD stay. With that said, I don’t see how the twins fall that far—especially Marcus.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 30, 2011 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions
I disagree
T Rob should still go. I stay by my take that late first round is where he will always go if even in the first round
"To all the fake fans that just jump on and off the bandwagon who think we suck go cheer for somebody down the road then" -JP
What makes you say that?
I’ve never got this sentiment from NBA people at all. Most every one of them have Robinson projected as a lottery pick next year, because he’s got the true NBA body/athleticism. Marcus and Markieff are more polished, but Robinson has the ceiling. NBA execs almost always error on the side of potential.
by hiphopopotamus on Mar 31, 2011 8:36 AM CDT up reply actions
Only so many
can fit in the lottery.
Since it sounds like most people here don’t have the ESPN Insider, here is Ford’s Top20:
1. Kyrie Irving
2. Derrick Williams
3. Harrison Barnes
4. Jared Sullinger returning (snicker)
5. Perry Jones
6. Enes Kanter
7. Jonas Valanciunas (Lithuania)
8. Jan Vesely (Czech)
9. Kemba Walker
10. Brandon Knight
11. Terrence Jones
12. Tristan Thompson returning
13. Kawhi leonard
14. John Henson
15. Kenneth Faried
16. Alec Burks
17. Tyler Zeller
18. Nikola Mirotic (Serbia)
19. Jordan Hamilton
20. Jimmer Fredette
All of those guys are listed as potential Lottery picks by Ford.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure he's not coming back.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 31, 2011 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Damn
Now that I look at that list, I could see the Twins slipping. Didn’t realize there were so many good players in NCAA baskethoops this year
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 31, 2011 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Is Pullen anywhere in the draft?
"To all the fake fans that just jump on and off the bandwagon who think we suck go cheer for somebody down the road then" -JP
The boards I've seen have had him in the mid-2nd,
or as a UDFA, that latches on with a team.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 31, 2011 9:13 PM CDT up reply actions
I really doubt that his ceiling includes a 3 ball
Footwork, jump shots, etc can be worked on at any level. In 2 yrs at KU he hasnt shot a single 3. To me thats about all his game is missing. With no 3 ball in his attack I dont think a team in the Lottery that is in need of a big do it all player will draft him. IMO
"To all the fake fans that just jump on and off the bandwagon who think we suck go cheer for somebody down the road then" -JP
Sounds right for TRob, maybe even a bit generous
But I don’t see Marcus falling that far. The ONLY thing that might hurt him is he is a true tweener – not quite big enough for an NBA 4 but not quite quick/perimiter oriented enough for an NBA 3.
That being said, he’s be a dream post player for a team like Golden State.
Markieff could go higher than that as well, but probably not significantly higher…
Honestly, scouts might say to Marcus “you need to be an NBA three” and Marcus might go “ok, I’ll come back a year if I can play at the three, at least somewhat.” Pretty sure Self would say yes in a heartbeat.
He kinda did the same thing with Wright, moving him from the four to the three his sophomore year at times, but it was harder because Wright was never the shooter Marcus is.
It certainly is going to be interesting…
Thank you for posting that by the way. Unlike Mel Kiper Jr. and Todd McShay with the NFL, Chad Ford actually does a good job covering the NBA draft and isn’t bought off by programs (I’m not a big NBA fan, but it seems like Ford does good work)
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 30, 2011 10:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Meant to say Kiper is bought off by agents, not programs
No secret that agents have been paying him for years in order to get him to “project” their player higher. But thats neither here nor there in terms of this thread
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Mar 30, 2011 10:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Yep.
Kiper’s bought off, and McShay is despised by those from whom he needs information. I pretty much ignore both of those guys, NFL draft-wise.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Mar 31, 2011 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Bring On The Cats
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
