K-State Slate: 12.20.11
by TB on Dec 20, 2011 7:36 AM CST
in Football
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K-State Football
Dr. Saturday's list of the best breakout players (freshmen and transfers) includes a certain K-State legacy who returned some kicks for touchdowns.
Over at goEMAW, ksu_FAN continues his tour-de-force in previewing the Arkansas Razorbacks. First, he has a thorough look, with video, at the Arkansas running game. Next comes the play-action passes, screen passes and goal-line offense. Finally, get a peek at what Tyler Wilson will do in the drop-back passing game.
College Football
Bill takes a look at what could happen if Dayne Crist and Jake Heaps transfer to KU. Crist has made his visits, but hasn't announced his decision.
College Basketball
Read this if you want to be infuriated. St. Joseph coach Phil Martelli won't release graduate student Todd O'Brien from his scholarship, so O'Brien can't play at UAB this season. O'Brien is out of eligibility after this season.
Rush The Court checks in on the Big 12.
KU lost to Davidson, 80-74, last night at the Sprint Center.
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All these big 12 non-conference losses are going to screw our RPI down the road
I was totally unaware of this game and watching Family Guy….darn.
Bitchslapping Texas since 1997
I was pessimistic before the season ...
but I actually kind of think the conference strength is going to be ok. Good enough not to hurt us anyway. Man, is college basketball down. And we’ll have to win enough conference road games to get to the dance anyway, I think our RPI is going to be plenty good enough. If we’re talking about seeding, maybe it ends up making a difference. But maybe the signature wins (and losses) will matter more when it comes to that.
by Itchy n Scratchy on Dec 20, 2011 8:50 AM CST up reply actions
RPI ?
I want KU to start losing often and with some regularity to teams like Davidson. I want KU to go through a 15 year walk in the wilderness, where they are no longer considered an “elite” team. And I want us to win more conference titles in that 15 year period than they do. For us to win more titles, the veneer of “greatness” needs to be stripped off of KU for awhile, so we get comfortable with the idea that we are, in fact, better than they are. I just don’t care about things like RPI. If you aren’t first or a close second in your conference, the tournament is just a few more games anyway.
I know I’m in the minornity on this, but I want conference titles. And oh by the way, KU sucks!
oh hail the Purple and White
by Furnace76 on Dec 20, 2011 12:42 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Hmmm...I'm on your train Furnace.
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by mac attack ict on Dec 20, 2011 12:49 PM CST up reply actions
With 2 days remaining Snyder's lead increased to 30,224 currently
Bitchslapping Texas since 1997
by mjk7166 on Dec 20, 2011 7:42 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
I noticed this last night.
Pretty cool.
First to identify a TEWWT (so what if it was unintentional)
by Jeremy Sharp on Dec 20, 2011 9:43 AM CST up reply actions
I really hope the SI article generates enough buzz that SJ gives the kid his release.
And I’m sure that’s the purpose behind it. Generate a lot of support for the kid and pressure the school to release him.
No kidding.
That’s obviously only one side of the story but if there is another side, hopefully that gets it out.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
My guess...
…is that Martelli is mad that O’Brien waited around half the summer before asking for his release. O’Brien mentions how he received his St. Joe’s scholarship papers in the mail, but hesitated before signing them and sending them back in. By delaying, he probably led Martelli to believe he was coming back, and thus Martelli planned on having him and didn’t recruit a replacement.
In my eyes, that’s not enough justification for refusing to release a player from scholarship. And St. Joe’s rivals have to be licking their chops at the chance to use this in recruiting.
We'll carry the banner high!
Bring On The Cats
by TB on Dec 20, 2011 8:20 AM CST up reply actions
There was a report that he was also suspended
for some reason last year. Only for a game or so, but didn’t play much after that
If you want a BS reponse, here's one:
Hail to the Purple, Hail to the White
Wildcat in spirit, Wildcat in fight
Hail Alma Mater from sea to sea
Onward forever, Hail Victory!
Those people need to be strung up--
proverbially speaking, of course. Martelli’s nothing more than a petulant child.
"An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose time has come." *Victor Hugo*
Let's see if I can paraphrase this accurately:
1) We have a system that normally works out positively for the student intending to transfer.
2) Once you appeal, it is now the NCAA’s fault, not ours.
3) We are awesome; THE END
Hail to the Purple, Hail to the White
Wildcat in spirit, Wildcat in fight
Hail Alma Mater from sea to sea
Onward forever, Hail Victory!
Yep, BS reply
Kid is getting the BOHICA
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by mac attack ict on Dec 20, 2011 3:21 PM CST up reply actions
As much as I enjoy KU losing in everything from football to Tiddlywinks
We need the Big12 to go undefeated in non-conference. It only helps us. It’s true in all sports. The stronger our conference looks the higher our RPI. Once in conference they can go 0-16 for all I care.
When life hands you lemons, make grape juice. Let them wonder how the F*ck you did it.
Fight till Hell freezes over and then fight them on the ice.
Speaking of conference, it's wide open.
KU is pretty average and Missouri’s rpi is a whopping 67 because they really have only beat one decent team, Cal. I think Missouri is good, but they haven’t faced a swarming D like ours yet. Baylor is good also, but we have always seemed to play well against them. Considering we face @KU, Missouri and Baylor our first three games, we should know who the real contenders are pretty fast.
Bitchslapping Texas since 1997
The bigger problem for Missourah ...
will be the teams with big, athletic frontcourts (like KSU). They’ll have to turn teams like that over like crazy and shoot well because they will get killed on the boards. Looks like they’re capable of doing that, but it’s not easy to do night-in and night-out.
Playing Kim English at the 4 makes for a crazy matchup when they play just about any major conference team.
by Itchy n Scratchy on Dec 20, 2011 8:57 AM CST up reply actions
Your Bill C link is actually a link to the KU-Davidson article.
Would you like some Freys with that?
Paging Dr. Freud.
When life hands you lemons, make grape juice. Let them wonder how the F*ck you did it.
Fight till Hell freezes over and then fight them on the ice.
Interesting look at current and future TV money
for the Big-12, courtesy of Dennis Dodds.
Can't really stand the guy myself.
Turned me off back when Gundy had his “I’m a man” speach. Dodds stuck up for the reporter and pretty much said Gundy is an awful coach and it was only a matter of time before he got fired. The whole article just reeked of trying to stick a knife in Gundy’s back just to stick up for another media member.
What a member of the media sticking someone in the back?
Say it ain’t so!
Bobby Hill: What's a meat examination team?
Hank Hill: It's like a debate team, only instead of doing something useless you get to grade the cut and quality of meat!
On ku last night ...
Obviously, everyone knew ku had no depth this year. But watching Taylor play at about 40% effectiveness with that knee problem … that team is in trouble. Robinson, Taylor, and Elijah Johnson have to be lights out consistently for them to have any shot at the conference title. I wonder how long it’s going to take for Taylor to get back to near 100%. I wonder if he gets it all back this year.
by Itchy n Scratchy on Dec 20, 2011 10:25 AM CST reply actions
I'll amend "any shot" to "a good shot" ...
mainly because I don’t think the conference is full of world beaters this year, to say the least.
by Itchy n Scratchy on Dec 20, 2011 10:34 AM CST up reply actions
See, I take a bit of a different take
I think at this point, we know what we are getting (good and bad) from Taylor and Robinson, and to a lesser extend Johnson and even Releford and Withey. Its the other guys, the unknowns, that will make or break the season. For example, against tOSU Kevin Young exploded out of nowhere for a bunch of points and was huge for us. Then last night, he disappears. Same has happened with Tharpe.
Right now, KU has probably a 12-6 big 12, Sweet 16 (hopefully) type of team with what is a given. It is up to the freshman and transfers to raise that ceiling. Unfortunately, nothing has shown us that anyone is willing to step up on a consistent basis to make that happen.
Theres going to be games like the OSU win and the Duke close loss, and then there will be these Davidson type losses. Most KU fans have prepared themselves for it, at least I have. For the first time in several years, we simply don’t have the talent to be an elite team. We’ll just hold out hoping our defense keeps us in every game and we can make a run at the end of the year.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Dec 20, 2011 11:18 AM CST up reply actions
I like you Andrew
But get through the first round Davidsons of the world before worrying about the sweet 16.
When life hands you lemons, make grape juice. Let them wonder how the F*ck you did it.
Fight till Hell freezes over and then fight them on the ice.
by BlackCats on Dec 20, 2011 11:42 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, that Elite 8 last year was rough.
Or the Championship in 2008.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
Sorry, I meant that but should have walked away.
Don’t want to get into it here, fire away at me.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
Have you ever won a championship when you weren't on probation or that resulted in probation?
The time for calm and rational discourse is past, now is the time for senseless bickering -Anonymous the Younger
BOTC - Read the Adventures of the BigXII if you doubt our serious attitude towards sports.
by Anon_the_younger on Dec 20, 2011 12:24 PM CST up reply actions
The probation of 2008 is kind of dumb
It was from a different coach and different A.D. and really didn’t have an impact. I’d argue the 1988 probation was more… significant.
#homer
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Dec 20, 2011 2:59 PM CST up reply actions
So you are saying that if the people doing the cheating leave, the college shouldn't be punished for their misdeeds?
The time for calm and rational discourse is past, now is the time for senseless bickering -Anonymous the Younger
BOTC - Read the Adventures of the BigXII if you doubt our serious attitude towards sports.
by Anon_the_younger on Dec 20, 2011 3:43 PM CST up reply actions
No, the college should be punished
I just don’t see how the title team benefited. The current coach and players didn’t reap the rewards of the “cheating” just the punishment. So not saying we shouldn’t have been on probation, just that I don’t see its significance to the title.
You kind find way fishier “team won a title, lots of bad stuff surfaced the following year about said team” scenarios. Heck, just look at UConn from last year. Or Kentucky when…oh, wait, sorry. Cal still hasn’t got there
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Dec 20, 2011 4:26 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I wish the punishments could follow the perpetrators too
Bush and Carroll for example.
"If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse." - Mark Twain
BOYCOTT ESPN!
Especially if they are in the same level
I get when a guy goes NCAA to NBA like Floyd at USC, or NCAA to NFL like Carroll.
But when a guy like Calipari goes from UConn (scandels!) to Memphis (scandels!!!) to Kentucky… the following thing really hits home.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Dec 20, 2011 4:32 PM CST up reply actions
It was UMass, not UConn
UConn already has its own grade A asshole in Jim Calhoun, and he predated Calipari at UMass.
You're right, my bad
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Dec 20, 2011 7:59 PM CST up reply actions
Wasn't the 2008 probation because players were given money after graduation by alumni?
The time for calm and rational discourse is past, now is the time for senseless bickering -Anonymous the Younger
BOTC - Read the Adventures of the BigXII if you doubt our serious attitude towards sports.
by Anon_the_younger on Dec 20, 2011 5:01 PM CST up reply actions
That was the basketball part of it I believe.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
It also included the improper benefits to Darnell Jackson.
We'll carry the banner high!
Bring On The Cats
by TB on Dec 20, 2011 6:25 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, when a family friend paid for him to go to a funeral...
The humanity.
Its overblown. I know it makes KState fans feel better about KU winning the title, but still. Would you rather have had the other team in the title game win? The one who vacated its entire season?
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Dec 20, 2011 6:53 PM CST up reply actions
Just stating facts. And it was more than that.
I think there were meals and clothing involved, too. It wasn’t Reggie Bush at USC, but it was more than what you portray.
And given that Darrell Arthur should have been ineligible for essentially the same reason that Derrick Rose was ruled ineligible, I’m not sure KU can claim a lot of high ground over Memphis.
We'll carry the banner high!
Bring On The Cats
by TB on Dec 20, 2011 7:00 PM CST up reply actions
Arthur's aunt was a work friend of mine back when KU was recruiting him.
It was no secret that the athletes ran the school at Arthur’s high school. And his team has since had to vacate the 05 and 06 state titles, because teachers were blatantly changing the players’ grades to keep them eligible, both for the seasons and for college. Also, the kid could barely read, so other than cheating (as Rose did) I have no idea how he could have possibly made a passing score on the SAT.
by Collin's Bloody Elbow on Dec 21, 2011 3:36 AM CST up reply actions
Its OK...we know your site sucks so we'll watch over you like an old person with dimensia.
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by mac attack ict on Dec 20, 2011 3:24 PM CST up reply actions
Sometime the truth hurts.
When life hands you lemons, make grape juice. Let them wonder how the F*ck you did it.
Fight till Hell freezes over and then fight them on the ice.
Sorry - that was a bit harsh, but it is what it is.
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by mac attack ict on Dec 21, 2011 10:53 AM CST up reply actions
Is there a reason you think our site sucks?
Apart from it being a KU blog? Just curious.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Dec 21, 2011 12:01 PM CST up reply actions
KU lost to Oral Roberts at home in 2007, made the Elite 8
You can’t grab one game and make it an example for how the rest of the season will play out. Too early, too long a season.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Dec 20, 2011 2:58 PM CST up reply actions
Exactly
"If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse." - Mark Twain
BOYCOTT ESPN!
Not what I was doing.
I was making a comical reference to KU’s propensity (or at least more than once) to lose to teams they shouldn’t in the early rounds. It happens. Own it. Or the doth protest too much.
When life hands you lemons, make grape juice. Let them wonder how the F*ck you did it.
Fight till Hell freezes over and then fight them on the ice.
Ok...I own it...?
I’ve said the same thing several times in this thread. I won’t run away from our tournament shortcomings. They suck.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Dec 20, 2011 9:45 PM CST up reply actions
It wasn't you
Warden was the one who was all, “whoopty doo, we got rings bitches”…but you also embarrass yourselves every so often too.
When life hands you lemons, make grape juice. Let them wonder how the F*ck you did it.
Fight till Hell freezes over and then fight them on the ice.
...?
You meaning Andrew, or you meaning KU fans, or you meaning KU basketball team? No personal attacks please.
"If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse." - Mark Twain
BOYCOTT ESPN!
Yeah
We have plenty of embarrassing folks ourselves who often should have their mouths stuffed with a sock.
Bobby Hill: What's a meat examination team?
Hank Hill: It's like a debate team, only instead of doing something useless you get to grade the cut and quality of meat!
I think he was saying "you" as in "KU fans",
in reference to the fact that he just embarrassed himself.
Hence the “too”.
But then again, I tend to assume that every thing posted by BlackCats is a ridiculous fail at humor…
Would you like some Freys with that?
by ChrisP Wildcat on Dec 21, 2011 7:39 AM CST up reply actions
Despite, or rather in-spite, or your reasoning skills
I was referring to the basketball team’s ability to lose to speed bumps when they should be playing for the national championship. It’s one thing to squeak into the tourney and lose in the first or second round, but I would be embarrassed if KState consistently dominated the regular season and couldn’t make it past these no names more than two or three times a decade. Seven straight Conference Championship (rolling eyes) and four times fail. Not even a good batting average.
And Chris you are wise to take what I say with a grain of salt, as everyone should. However, I would rather fail at humor 100% of the time than, well, this:
Walked right into it. Love you buddy.
When life hands you lemons, make grape juice. Let them wonder how the F*ck you did it.
Fight till Hell freezes over and then fight them on the ice.
"I would be embarrassed if KState consistently dominated the regular season and couldn’t make it past these no names more than two or three times a decade"
Super embarrassing. Maybe you should do more than two elite 8 appearances in 23 years before poking fun.
Sure, its embarrassing for KU fans. But apart from 3-4 other schools in the nation, I’m having a hard time finding a better alternative.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Dec 21, 2011 11:57 AM CST up reply actions
I'm missing something
K-State is not exactly in position to be ragging on KU basketball, as if the Jayhawk program is notorious for under-achieving. Hating on KU, I get. But like it or not, they remain one of the standards in college hoops.
by CT-K-Stater on Dec 21, 2011 12:08 PM CST up reply actions
I'm not ragging
I’d love to have their conference success (or our old success) over the last 15 years. My simple Snyder-esque statement of one game at a time has blown into an affront on all that is KU basketball. Which to me says that one, I hit a little too close to home and two, I was right.
My story and I’m stickin to it.
When life hands you lemons, make grape juice. Let them wonder how the F*ck you did it.
Fight till Hell freezes over and then fight them on the ice.
I'm not poking fun
Those are the facts. When you do what is expected, or more than expected, it good. When you don’t it’s disappointing, embarrassing, ______ (insert your own adjective).
It’s kind of like your football team. They did exactly what everyone thought they would. If they had gone out and won two B12 games that would have been a success, but to meet expectations is what it is.
When life hands you lemons, make grape juice. Let them wonder how the F*ck you did it.
Fight till Hell freezes over and then fight them on the ice.
Thats fine, just seems a little harsh
I mean, if in 2004 I had said:
“I’d be embarrassed if my football team consistently churned out winning seasons and all they had to show for it was one BCS game a decade”
I’m pretty sure KSU fans would do a double take and say “hey, were still doing pretty damn well” and also “wait, this is coming from a KU fan?!”
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Dec 21, 2011 12:16 PM CST up reply actions
Ah I love these occasional spats
At least they don’t degenerate into outright personal insults as much as they used to.
Still their cute though.
Bobby Hill: What's a meat examination team?
Hank Hill: It's like a debate team, only instead of doing something useless you get to grade the cut and quality of meat!
Fuck you and the Meat you rode in on. You're obviously a horrible person.
/hadtoo
/loveyouman
/notinaKUway
When life hands you lemons, make grape juice. Let them wonder how the F*ck you did it.
Fight till Hell freezes over and then fight them on the ice.
Not that there is anything wrong with that.
/Selby’d
Bobby Hill: What's a meat examination team?
Hank Hill: It's like a debate team, only instead of doing something useless you get to grade the cut and quality of meat!
Did you like
that I didn’t even point out the BCS would not have been 10 years old in 2004? I mean, I’ve tried to keep it civil and fair, but I can only type with my left pinky toe for so long.
When life hands you lemons, make grape juice. Let them wonder how the F*ck you did it.
Fight till Hell freezes over and then fight them on the ice.
If you think my posts will be backed by facts
You are sorely mistaken :)
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Dec 21, 2011 3:08 PM CST up reply actions
At least you're being honest. :)
First to identify a TEWWT (so what if it was unintentional)
by Jeremy Sharp on Dec 21, 2011 4:34 PM CST up reply actions
I dunno if we can call them spats
Pretty sure BlackCats and I are half joking in most things we say, with a small homerestic tinge.
Gotta be civil, but passionate fans. That middle ground…
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Dec 21, 2011 3:10 PM CST up reply actions
I distinctly remember spats in the past
Some were civil enough, just as many definitely weren’t.
Bobby Hill: What's a meat examination team?
Hank Hill: It's like a debate team, only instead of doing something useless you get to grade the cut and quality of meat!
Well
There is a certain elbow floating around that could never let something go. When that happens, it usually turns personal.
When life hands you lemons, make grape juice. Let them wonder how the F*ck you did it.
Fight till Hell freezes over and then fight them on the ice.
No comment
Bobby Hill: What's a meat examination team?
Hank Hill: It's like a debate team, only instead of doing something useless you get to grade the cut and quality of meat!
Elbow?
Easily confused man is confused
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Dec 21, 2011 4:19 PM CST up reply actions
New name
It is interesting that you went from being anonymous (KUGrad) to non-anonymous (Your Name), while this other person did the exact opposite.
Would you like some Freys with that?
by ChrisP Wildcat on Dec 21, 2011 5:17 PM CST up reply actions
And I only say interesting because it was specifically brought up in one of those spats to which BC is referring.
Would you like some Freys with that?
by ChrisP Wildcat on Dec 21, 2011 5:23 PM CST up reply actions
ohhhhhhhhh
easily confused man understands
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Dec 21, 2011 6:11 PM CST up reply actions
I was a bit confused too, to be honest.
I didn’t even think that you were referring to CBE. lol
First to identify a TEWWT (so what if it was unintentional)
by Jeremy Sharp on Dec 21, 2011 5:54 PM CST up reply actions
I actually didn't switch it, happened when I became an author
And I wrote for SB Nation KC for a while and you have to have it as your name. Guess I could shorten it to a first name or initials or something…
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Dec 21, 2011 6:14 PM CST up reply actions
True, true.
Most fans would. I’m not most fans, as I would agree with you. It’s the same reason I argued with people on here that I didn’t care if we had split the Conference Championship with OU and OSU or six other teams, it was more important than going to a BCS game. Whoopty do a BCS game. No one cares. We do right now, but Conference Championships are forever. The BCS will be a footnote in 50 years…or 10 depending on who you talk to.
My life is lived in many shades of gray. My sports are black and white. It’s comforting and why I enjoy them.
When life hands you lemons, make grape juice. Let them wonder how the F*ck you did it.
Fight till Hell freezes over and then fight them on the ice.
I'd prefer 10
And I can’t argue with having principles and sticking to em
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Dec 21, 2011 3:11 PM CST up reply actions
Well, it's good that you like failing 100% of the time, because you just did it again.
Despite, or rather in-spite, or your reasoning skills
“or” should be “of”.
Pathetic.
/fallingbackonsillyerrorsinattempttowinargument
Would you like some Freys with that?
by ChrisP Wildcat on Dec 21, 2011 5:14 PM CST up reply actions
Left. Pinky. Toe.
If I have to start typing with my hands, your faces will melt.
When life hands you lemons, make grape juice. Let them wonder how the F*ck you did it.
Fight till Hell freezes over and then fight them on the ice.
by BlackCats on Dec 21, 2011 7:05 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
And yes I meant faces.
As a general warning to the broader public.
When life hands you lemons, make grape juice. Let them wonder how the F*ck you did it.
Fight till Hell freezes over and then fight them on the ice.
by BlackCats on Dec 21, 2011 7:07 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Keep your eyes closed Indy.
The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of strength, not a lack of knowledge, but rather in a lack of will. - Vince Lombardi
Having the best coach in the league, along with the best player (I'd rather have Robinson than Jones) means KU is never going to fall off a cliff
Barring injuries, that is. Self doesn’t loose to inferior teams in conference, so I think 11-7 is the minimum for KU. Get a few breaks and they’re going to be top-4 in the league easily. But I also think KU fans will have to consider conference top-4 and 2nd round of the tournament a success given the depth and possible injury issues (just like I had to given mess of a team the Cats had midway through last year).
"If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse." - Mark Twain
BOYCOTT ESPN!
I know I've stopped caring about the league more and more as I grow old
And that might sound odd coming from a fan of a team that has 7 straight league titles, but the reality is it means almost nothing in the grand scheme of things. Yes, we got the league hardware, but in the same period, just one final four (and the title thank god). Also have two first round exits and a second round exit with a team that had only two losses entering the tournament (and beat the tar out of a good Big 12 that year).
Point being, its seasons like this one where I get even more apathetic and start taking a “wake me up in march” attitude. As long as we get in the dance as a decent seed (top 5) it is what it is. Hopefully the team gets some magic and goes on a run like UConn did last year. Huge if, but I’ll stay hopeful.
And like I’ve said over at RCT, that is the problem with college basketball. The tournament, as magical and cool as it is, is a crap shoot. Last year was one example, all the top teams were out before the final 4. Who cares what happens in December or even January and February, as long as it isn’t a total failure? It all matters in the big dance…
Guess I’m just more cynical now that I’ve reached 25…
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Dec 20, 2011 3:07 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
This is an example of the mind set which allows "tournaments" to devalue the regular season
Of course, go 30 some years without a conference title, and the darn things will mean something to a fan base.
oh hail the Purple and White
Do you disagree with what he said?
I can understand KU, and USC, and OU, and OSU, and every other league-dominant team’s fan bases that get bored with conference titles. I don’t like it, but eventually you just stop caring about yet another conference title and all you want are national titles.
More than anything else, I think it’s an indictment of the league that no one has been able to knock KU off even though some of those teams haven’t been that great. I’m feeling confident it will change this year, but I’m not betting against Self until his boys lose more than 5 conference games in a year.
"If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse." - Mark Twain
BOYCOTT ESPN!
The biggest problem is the lack of a reward for winning the regular season
If you win your conference tournament (talk about a freaking crapshoot…) you are in automatically. But the regular season? 16-18 games? It…well it decides your seed in the weekend tournament? Wait, what?
In football, you win your conference, it means you make a BCS game. In the NCAA tournament needs to adopt a reward for regular season conference winners. Maybe we start establishing a bye with them, since we keep expanding the tournament (let’s not get started on that one though…)
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Dec 20, 2011 4:35 PM CST up reply actions
Has there ever been a time where
The regular season champ doesn’t get into the tournament? You don’t get an auto bid per se, but you’ll be there. It’s not like the tourney champ gets an auto seed.
When life hands you lemons, make grape juice. Let them wonder how the F*ck you did it.
Fight till Hell freezes over and then fight them on the ice.
In the smaller leagues yes
Its a bigger issue there. I don’t get someone can win a small league, be the best team over the regular season, then miss out because the 5 seed got hot and won three games. I know its just to decide who gets slaughtered in round one most of the time, but its a huge deal for those small schools.
I think if we are going to expand the tournament and implement byes (something being discussed), we should look at rewarding regular season champs, or top 2 from the big conferences, etc. Some sort of reward. Only if expanding the tourney though.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Dec 20, 2011 9:49 PM CST up reply actions
Not to sound like a KU elitist...
But I could care less about the smaller conferences. Until one runs the table and wins the championship they’re just fodder…well for most. The only reason to expand the tourney is to put more games on tv, not find the real champion. I’m for a smaller field.
When life hands you lemons, make grape juice. Let them wonder how the F*ck you did it.
Fight till Hell freezes over and then fight them on the ice.
I'd love a smaller field too
Unfortunately, the people who run the damn thing think the opposite. But I’ve pissed and moaned about expanding the tournament several times at RCT, and even proposed changes to the field format in a few posts. I think I’ve given up at this point.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Dec 21, 2011 8:27 AM CST up reply actions
Even though I know it would limit our appearances to once in a blue moon...
I would rather they take the conference regular season and tournament Champs only. If that’s the same team in many conferences (or a conference doesn’t have a tourney) and there are is space left then take some at-large teams to fill a bracket. If you can’t win one of those things, why would anyone expect you to win it all? It would make the NIT and some of the other tournaments more important and watchable (marketable) for TV.
When life hands you lemons, make grape juice. Let them wonder how the F*ck you did it.
Fight till Hell freezes over and then fight them on the ice.
I think we looked into this on RCT a while back
And found that out of the last 20 champions or so, a significant portion of them did win either their regular season or tournament championship. So limited stats WOULD back up your idea.
Still, its hard for me to imagine it working based on league parity. There have been years where the Big East has had several teams better than say the SEC’s second best team. Hard to implement with leagues having an uneven number of teams, power balance issues, etc.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Dec 21, 2011 11:59 AM CST up reply actions
We'd see a migration of talent
While scholarships have forced football talent to be more evenly spread, so too would the incentive of playing for a ring. Not the best analogy, but you see where I’m going. How does Baylor and Texas Tech beat OU? Well OU, UT and aTm can’t horde all the talent. It allows others to get some.
The BEast has so much talent because you can place 7th in the conference and still have a shot. If only the top two had a shot, players would go to other teams in other conferences to get their shot. If I was the BEast I’d hate the idea, if I was anyone other than maybe the ACC, it would be great.
When life hands you lemons, make grape juice. Let them wonder how the F*ck you did it.
Fight till Hell freezes over and then fight them on the ice.
I think its certainly possible, but lets not oversimply too much
A lot of guys like playing close to home, for certain coaches, with AAU buddies, etc.
While I migration of talent could certainly be an outcome, I’m not sure if its enough to outweigh several other factors.
Sometimes I wonder if winning a ring is truly the goal of a lot of college players. At least the best ones. Sure they want to win. A lot also have millions of NBA dollars on their mind as well. Or some just want to get paid and go to Kentucky (I’m not done with shots at Calipari).
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Dec 21, 2011 3:14 PM CST up reply actions
This happens at all levels of sports
Look at the Atlanta Braves. After winning 14 consecutive Division Titles, the fans in Atlanta started not really paying attention to the regular season (at least this is what I observed, and I have heard the fanbase criticized for not getting excited about baseball until October because it was a given they were going to be there year in and year out).
Well, after their 14th trip, they took a bit of a tumble and have not been as dominating the past several years, and the fanbase is not getting back into the regular season and seem to be excited for it.
I figure it would only take one season of KU not winning the league title before they “start caring” again.
First to identify a TEWWT (so what if it was unintentional)
by Jeremy Sharp on Dec 20, 2011 5:10 PM CST up reply actions
Do I disagree?
not really – I understand why Sooner fan pines for another “national title” – mythic though they are. I think March Madness – as great as it is – has a downside, and that is that the season is now played for “seeding” etc., rather than a focus on winning your conference. Doubt if there is anything that can be done about, short of adopting Bob Knight’s idea of only a 32 field team – and we know that isn’t going to happen.
oh hail the Purple and White
by Furnace76 on Dec 20, 2011 5:13 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Well, that's what they used to do.
If I’m not mistaken, you had to win your conference to get the invite to the tournament. I’m pretty sure this is how KSU got in back in the day (like in 1951 when we lost in the title game to Kentucky), and I don’t believe there was a conference tournament.
Now, for a conference like MVC, winning the regular season conference crown DOES actually mean something if you happen to stumble in the conference tournament (kind of). For instance, if WSU goes undefeated in the MVC regular season and wins the conference, but loses a game in the conference tournament, there is still a good shot that WSU would go to the Big Dance (at the expense of one of the larger conference bubble teams).
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by Jeremy Sharp on Dec 20, 2011 5:24 PM CST up reply actions
This was the way it was when we won the B/8 in 73 and 74
They started expanding the field in the late 70s.
When I grew up, you didn’t make the tourney unless you won your conference. I know we aren’t going back to that. I just want to win the conference in B/ball like once every 6 years. Back in the 60s and early 70s, we won about 40% of the confernce titles.
oh hail the Purple and White
Totally agreed Furnace
By the way, I wasn’t trying to be mean, I was just asking a question. I realized my question could have sounded like a jerk.
"If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse." - Mark Twain
BOYCOTT ESPN!
I didn't take the question that way at all - this is the internet!
oh hail the Purple and White
Thats fair
But I totally agree with you on tournaments. But if you want to play the KState/KU card, just go back to 2010. KU beats KState three times in the season. Goes 15-1 in the league. Top seed. Loses in second round. KState is a good team that gets hot and storms to the elite 8 and loses to the eventual runner up.
Lots of scenarios where we find its all about getting hot at the right time, regular season results be damned. I’m not sure if this means that the regular season just isn’t a good predictor of March, the tournament is a crap shoot, or simply KU struggles more than most “top teams” in the field. Maybe its all three.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Dec 20, 2011 4:30 PM CST up reply actions
1988 is another example of a team getting hot at the right time.
First to identify a TEWWT (so what if it was unintentional)
by Jeremy Sharp on Dec 20, 2011 5:11 PM CST up reply actions
True
Although KU has had a lot of dominant teams that fell short (1997, 2002, 2003, 2010, even 2007), we did get a bit of a fluke run ourselves.
Although the 88 team did have the best player in the nation. UConn showed us last year that one dominant player can carry an otherwise decent to good team pretty far.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Dec 20, 2011 6:14 PM CST up reply actions
Too bad Beasley had to face Wisky in the 2nd round
The ONE team I don’t want any part of is the one the Cats see twice in 4 years. Blech.
I’m increasingly unimpressed by playoffs because wildcards seem to win so often. The best teams during the regular season don’t seem to win world series, super bowls, or NBA titles. Admittedly, the case is weak when you have best-of series, but would anyone argue the Packers were the best team in football last year during the regular season? They were simply the hottest.
"If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse." - Mark Twain
BOYCOTT ESPN!
On the other hand...
…the playoff provide the opportunity for teams who dealt with injuries during the regular season to get healthy and make a run, which is what the Packers did last year.
But yeah, the biggest argument against a playoff is that it doesn’t decide who’s best, only who’s hottest.
We'll carry the banner high!
Bring On The Cats
by TB on Dec 20, 2011 6:27 PM CST up reply actions
I think this is the best way to sum it up, in a nutshell
Teams get a second chance that had regular season circumstances that prevented a high seed. However, some teams don’t get rewarded as much as you think they should for a dominant regular season.
Having said that, the NFL system is better to me. If a team gets a bye, its two games away from the title game with guaranteed home games. Thats a huge incentive.
In the NCAA tournament, EVERY team plays 5 games to get to the title, at a neutral site. Big difference between a top seed in the NFL playoffs, and a top seed in the NCAA tournament.
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Dec 20, 2011 6:57 PM CST up reply actions
I disagree with that viewpoint.
I do think the Packers were the best team in football last year.
The playoffs are like a miniature regular season, except you only play good teams. Getting into the playoffs is so hard, you know that whoever is there has earned it. Yes, even if the Chiefs make it this year.
Yes, there is the “hottest” aspect that is a part of the playoff, but to me that doesn’t really devalue the eventual champion.
Which, of course, is the problem with having the faux national championship game in college football. It is a one-off game, so it doesn’t even have the added benefit of forcing the better teams to compete in a “mini season” against other good teams. They get to have one shot at beating another team, even if that other team might actually be better. This year is a perfect example. At this point in time, LSU has a far superior schedule to Alabama, including a regular season victory over them. Even if LSU had lost that game, I would argue that their resume is better, due to the respective quality of opponents they’ve faced.
So if Alabama pulls off the upset, does that make them a better team? Not a chance.
However, if there had been a playoff, and Alabama had been forced to fight it’s way through a “miniature season” against quality opponents, then I would have no problem with saying Alabama was the national champion.
“getting hot” may be a part of the playoffs, but you still have to do some impressive stuff to earn that championship.
If we only care about the regular season, then we shouldn’t care about national champions at all, and should only worry about conference championships (just like Furnace wants) because that is the only thing the regular season can decide.
Would you like some Freys with that?
by ChrisP Wildcat on Dec 20, 2011 6:43 PM CST up reply actions
Let me clarify what I'm trying to say
With regard to March Madness, the winner, to me, is the winner of the NCAA Basketball tourney. Period. Doesn’t mean they are “the best team.” They are the team that won “the tournament.” No way Vilanova was “the best” team in 1985 or NC State was the “best” team in 1983. But they deserved what they got – the tourney title. Basketball sets up nicely for a “tournament.” Big time college football doesn’t, IMO.
Hence, I’m against further moves in BTCF (big time college football) toward a “tournament” (and a 16 or 8 team “playoff” would be just that. (This doens’t mean I think the BCS is the cat’s meow – because it’s not). I just don’t think an unequivocal determination of a “true champion” in BTCF is important enough to risk the best regular season in college or pro sports.
Now, I like March Madness. The “tourney” in basketball is embedded into college basketball tradition. I just want KSU to get back to really, really, wanting to win a conference title rather than being satisfied with a #2 seed.
oh hail the Purple and White
I understood that.
I was actually trying to point out how you were being consistent with your beliefs.
And I don’t really see how a playoffs would diminish the regular season. Everyone says that, but why is this just accepted fact?
If we want to determine a “National Champion”, the only way to do that is through a playoff. That is a fact. There are too many teams to play a round robin. Of the best teams, there schedule overlap so little that you can not make a legitimate comparison as to how one would fare over the other.
So, if we accept that a national champion is something that we want, there is only one solution to truly determine that. A playoff. If we don’t really care about a national champion, then playoffs are unimportant. The bowls are just exhibition games then. But there can be no legitimate claimant to the title “National Champion” in that kind of system.
Would you like some Freys with that?
by ChrisP Wildcat on Dec 20, 2011 8:22 PM CST up reply actions
In reply
You said “So, if we accept that a national champion [in football] is something that we want, there is only one solution to truly determine that.”
See, I don’t accept the premise that having a “true champion” in football is all that important. We have never had a “true champion”, and we don’t now with the BCS. The BCS champion is not the NCAA champion. The BCS is a marketing ploy, not even officially sanctioned by the NCAA. The BCS’s problem, as it has evolved, is the way Deathstar has marketed it, and the propaganda and thought control they employ to justify their crap. But I digresss.
You also said: “And I don’t really see how a playoffs would diminish the regular season. Everyone says that, but why is this just accepted fact?”
Well, it is not fact, it is opionon, just as those who claim that a playoff will not harm the regular season are voicing an opionion, not a fact.
My opion is it is not worth the RISK of messing with the regular season to get a “true champion.” My opinion is based on observation and experience. For instance, look what has happened as the March Madness has expanded. Trust a 57 year old – the “regular season” is no big deal now as compared to what it was 40 years ago.
Look what has happened in major league baseball – as the playoffs have expanded, with wild cards, etc., the regular season has been, in a way, diminished.
Now, I believe the benefits of March Madness have outweighed the slight damage to the regular season, and perhaps the same for major league baseball. And look at high school football playoffs. When I grew up, being a “conference champion” was a big frickin deal in football. Today, in Kanas, conferences are an after thought – it’s all about “district” sub= regisonal , etc.
I just don’t think it is worth the change that will come to the regular season in BTCF if we move to a playoff format. Of course, this really is premised on my belief that crowning a “true champion” in BTCF is not a big deal. Why is it? We have never had a “true champion.” (Rhetorical question – not trying to start a debate. I think we all are familiar with the pros and cons of each side of the debate. :)
oh hail the Purple and White
I know you don't care about a national champion for football
Which was why I referenced you in the initial post.
My reply to you was not directed completely at you, but was rather a more open ended argument.
And I guess the point I was making was that the majority of people DO want a national champion. So, since that is what they want, this is the only really acceptable solution.
Also, with baseball, I feel like the number of regular season games diminishes the regular season far more than the number of teams in a playoff.
Would you like some Freys with that?
by ChrisP Wildcat on Dec 20, 2011 9:41 PM CST up reply actions
And also, it seems that we are in agreement on most of these points.
I mean, I think your position is one of the most logically consistent ones (in regards to a playoff).
There are some people who very much think a national champion is important, but also think a playoff would be a bad idea.
Would you like some Freys with that?
by ChrisP Wildcat on Dec 20, 2011 9:44 PM CST up reply actions
The Packers are a different story
They are the best team in football this year with the same team. Only problem was they lost Rodgers for pretty much two games last year and had a ton of injury issues. Once they got it together, they’ve now gone on a 19-1 run over the past 20 games. So I’d argue yes… they were the best, we just didn’t know it yet.
By the way, I’m a Packer fan :)
Shit happens when you win championships
by Andrew Clark on Dec 20, 2011 6:55 PM CST up reply actions
My main point was that ku can't afford Taylor not at 100% and playing consistently good ball ...
imo, this year’s roster can’t make up for that slack. Not on a night-after-night basis during the conference schedule grind.
I think your base outlook for ku matches up fairly closely with mine, record-wise. Though, if someone forced me to go O/U on 6 conference losses I’d have to lean more toward 7 than toward 5. That’s more a bias toward the conference grind that I have vs non-conference play. One thing is almost certain, the conference champion is going to be a bloodied mess compared to most years.
by Itchy n Scratchy on Dec 20, 2011 12:07 PM CST up reply actions
And with 4 guys averaging over 30 minutes going to last night,
that conference schedule won’t do us any favors.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
Gottlieb reported Xavier will not have their starters back for the whole tourney
This is, of course, contrary to what I had heard.
Bitchslapping Texas since 1997
Also what I had heard.
According to TheBigE’s fanpost on the school imposed suspensions, it breaks down like this for Xavier players:
Tu Holloway: 1 game
Dez Wells: 4 games
Landen Amos: 4 games
Mark Lyons: 2 games
Per ESPN, this is Xavier’s schedule starting with the Cincinnati game:
Dec 10 vs CIN W76-53
Dec 18 vs ORU L64-42
Dec 22 vs LBSU*11:00 PM ET
Per the bracket no the Diamondhead Classic website:
Dec 23 vs Auburn or Hawaii
Dec 25 vs KSU (I’m making the assumption that we both make it to this game, because really, if either team does NOT make it, then who really cares).
ORU was the first game of the suspension. Tu Holloway should be back playing the next time Xavier steps on the court. Mark Lyons will be sitting out against LBSU. The other two guys would be sitting out their final game on Dec 25 (but they will ALL be making the trip to Hawaii). And this is what I heard on Sportscenter the last time I heard the situation discussed (which was a couple of days ago).
First to identify a TEWWT (so what if it was unintentional)
by Jeremy Sharp on Dec 20, 2011 2:40 PM CST up reply actions
Thanks, makes sense. With Holloway back for the LBSU game, they should be ok
Bitchslapping Texas since 1997
I hope so, but that LBSU/Xavier game is probably the 2nd best game ...
of the entire tournament, next to a projected KSU/Xavier championship game. It’s arguable, at least.
by Itchy n Scratchy on Dec 20, 2011 3:24 PM CST up reply actions
Amos is a bench player anyway
So they’ll only be missing Wells by the time they reach us.
Dez Wells: 21.5 minutes, 9.5 points, 4.5 rebounds per game.
I hope they beat LBSU Thursday.
I see that NCAA has banned tOSU from bowl competition in 2012
Oh noes!
First to identify a TEWWT (so what if it was unintentional)
Here's some more bull shit out of the Associated Press
Look who they crowned as the Coach of the Year… while everyone else has crowned a certain old man who has a team overachieving instead of doing exactly what everyone thought they would do but he had to “coach through some controversy”
http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/16531741/lsu-coach-miles-named-ap-coach-of-the-year
I was going to post the same thing
The Deathstar’s version of the story.
First to identify a TEWWT (so what if it was unintentional)
by Jeremy Sharp on Dec 20, 2011 6:02 PM CST up reply actions
Ah well
It isn’t easy to argue with 13-0, particularly because of the hard slate of team his boys have dispatched.
"If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse." - Mark Twain
BOYCOTT ESPN!
That slate LSU took on was impressive
oh hail the Purple and White
And their coach is spouting nonsense...
He just said they are the #1 team in the country in winning games decided by 7 points or less.
I don’t think that’s a true statement (considering they just won this game by 10 points).
First to identify a TEWWT (so what if it was unintentional)
by Jeremy Sharp on Dec 20, 2011 10:37 PM CST up reply actions
I looked it up.
They won 5 games by 7 points or less. Yeah, 5 is not greater than 8.
Nice try Doc Holliday.
First to identify a TEWWT (so what if it was unintentional)
by Jeremy Sharp on Dec 20, 2011 10:52 PM CST up reply actions
I love what we have done all this season,
And I know that winning the close games is what lets good teams have good seasons, but we really have to start considering is this something we are truly proud of, I mean it is technically a two way street, we may have hung around but we also let some teams hang around that we should have put away (see missouri)
by EMAW 4 Ever on Dec 20, 2011 11:13 PM CST up reply actions
Considering what we had this season and our schedule
I would argue yes it is something to be proud of. Well besides that whole EKU disaster.
Bobby Hill: What's a meat examination team?
Hank Hill: It's like a debate team, only instead of doing something useless you get to grade the cut and quality of meat!
Well, in most cases, we were behind and came back late to win.
It’s not like we were aTm’ing things up and blowing double digit leads in the 4th qtr every game. We let teams get a 14 point jump on us in the 1st qtr instead. lol
First to identify a TEWWT (so what if it was unintentional)
by Jeremy Sharp on Dec 20, 2011 11:54 PM CST up reply actions
Funny stuff from Fiutak
http://cfn.scout.com/2/1140591.html – particularly check out the Missouri and A&M wishes. HA!
"If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse." - Mark Twain
BOYCOTT ESPN!
Jeebus Sean T I just noticed your avatar...
and noaw Im lozing mi syte….argh.
The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of strength, not a lack of knowledge, but rather in a lack of will. - Vince Lombardi
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