Wrapping Up the Pinstripe Bowl, And Adrian Hilburn's Excessive Celebration Penalty
In a surprisingly entertaining game, K-State lost to Syracuse, 36-34, in the inaugural Pinstripe Bowl at Yankee Stadium.
The Wildcats struck first, leading 7-0 less than one minute into the game, before Syracuse ran off 14 straight points. Another Daniel Thomas touchdown tied the game at 14 going to halftime. In the second half, Syracuse realized that K-State was really bad at playing defense against the run and proceeded to run the ball a lot and scored touchdowns as a result. Nevertheless, K-State's offense kept pace and Syracuse could only manage a 27-21 lead going to the fourth quarter, thanks to a missed PAT.
A wild fourth quarter culminated in a terrible, not to mention hypocritical, penalty against K-State. But to focus on that would take away from the game itself. Thomas scored his third touchdown of the game to give K-State a 28-27 lead. Syracuse proceeded to run off nine straight points, thanks to a 44-yard touchdown pass to Marcus Sales, a wide receiver who had caught two touchdown passes already in the game, but somehow K-State decided to allow to run free down the middle of the field. Syracuse kicker Ross Krautman then proceeded to bang through a 40-yard field goal on a field that was the equivalent of the Rockefeller Center skating rink. Meanwhile, K-State decided to forgo a field-goal attempt of their own and ran the worst fake field goal in the history of fake field goals before Carson Coffman threw an impressive touchdown pass to Adrian Hilburn with only 1:13 remaining. Hilburn saluted the crowd, and of course the rest is history.
Hit the jump for reactions to some of the specific aspects of the game.
The Penalty
Let's get this out of the way first. Hilburn ran into the end zone with 1:13 remaining in the game, giving K-State a score that put it within a two-point conversion of Syracuse. Upon arriving at the back of the end zone, he turned to the crowd -- some have told me there were a lot of K-State fans sitting in that end zone, though I have no visual proof to confirm that -- and gave a salute that enlisted men at Fort Riley throw to their commanding officer. Upon doing so, one of the Big 10 officials apparently informed Hilburn that he had made the wrong move and that he was also the official's buddy.* The result was a 15-yard unsportsmanlike conduct penalty, which Syracuse of course chose to enforce on the PAT, requiring K-State to score from the 18 yard line. Carson Coffman's pass sailed wide.
* I wish this had been Hilburn's reaction to being called the official's buddy.
Now, let's be clear that the call by itself did not in any way cost K-State the game. A multitude of other plays cost K-State a chance to win that game. If K-State kicks a field goal in the fourth quarter instead of running a terrible fake into the middle of the line on fourth and five, Hilburn's touchdown makes the score 37-36 in K-State's favor. If K-State's defense didn't suck on a level that passes all understanding -- as mentioned in the preview post, Syracuse sucked something royal on offense this year, and yet put up 498 total yards and 36 points -- then K-State probably wins the game without the need for late heroics. And finally, give Syracuse credit. They played well, and deserved to win the game.
That said, the call was unequivocally wrong. That's right, it was not just "technically right but practically wrong" under the rule, it was just flat out the wrong call. Referee Todd Geerlings justified the call by quoting the rulebook, which states that "[a]ny delayed, excessive, prolonged or choreographed act by which a player attempts to focus attention on himself (or themselves)." Hilburn's salute was not delayed, excessive, prolonged or choreographed, which in itself disqualifies the salute from a flag, because the rule is written to require that those standards be met before deciding whether the act was intended to focus attention on himself. Under the rule, what Hilburn did was not a foul.
But let's assume it was, just for a second. One of, if not the single most important facets of officiating is to apply the rules equally. You hear it every year in basketball, coaches and players want contact that is called a foul on their team also to be called a foul on the other team. But these refs didn't do that, as this picture clearly shows. Sales gets to throw the Roc when he scores a touchdown, but Hilburn can't salute. Somehow, that seems skewed to me.
One final point needs to be made. College football fans talk about the passion as a reason why they love the college game. They show up and scream at the top of their lungs, hoping to distract the other team. They wear silly outfits hoping to attract the TV cameras. They sing strange songs, high-five each other after first downs, and jump for joy when a 19 year old who they've never met crosses the goal line to put six on the board for a school they may or may not have attended. In other words, they celebrate every little success on the field. They also talk incessantly about how they want a team that plays with heart, plays with passion, plays with fire, gives it everything they have, and every other cliche in the book. But then, the rulemakers -- and some of the fans themselves -- want the players to muzzle themselves. They expect them not to celebrate when the hard work, the early-morning conditioning, the late-night study hall, the hours of film study, the barking of the coaches, and the criticism of fans results in a successful play and they score six points to send tens of thousands of grown men and women into a frenzy.
If you've ever played sports, think about the state of mind you get into before the game. Maybe you listen to music, maybe you punch a locker, or maybe you read something inspirational to get ready. Whatever it is, you do something to get into a different state of mind for the game. We expect football players to get keyed up and play at a high level, in front of thousands of screaming fans, and then we expect them not to be exuberant when they have success? I never played basketball after my freshman year in high school, and I pumped my fist when I made three pointers. When I played in golf tournaments, I've occasionally done the same when I made big putts. I can certainly agree that taunting or showing up an opponent has no place in athletics, but I don't always expect players to just flip the ball to the referee and act like they've been there before. Sometimes, the player hasn't been there before. Sometimes it's not just a normal touchdown. You know, like when you score to give your team a chance to tie the game with one minute to play in the school's first bowl game in four years.
The bottom line is that this call didn't cost K-State the game. There's no guarantee that we convert the PAT from the three yard line. There's no guarantee that Syracuse doesn't drive down the field and score with 1:13 to go. There's no guarantee that we win in overtime if the game gets that far. But just as Syracuse played well enough to deserve to win the game, K-State played well enough to deserve a chance to tie the score from the three yard line.
A Thanks to Carson Coffman
I look back at the game threads from this season, and I'm a little embarrassed by the comments I've made concerning Coffman. No, he's not the fastest quarterback in the Big 12, by a long shot. No, he doesn't have the strongest arm in the Big 12, again by a long shot. But he directed the offense of a team that averaged 33.6 points and almost 380 yards per game. True, the offense wasn't explosive, but it was efficient. K-State averaged more points per game than did Texas A&M, Baylor, Nebraska and Missouri this year. If not for an abominable defense, this team very well could have won 10 games and been in the mix for the North.
As for the Pinstripe Bowl, Coffman was 17-23 for 228 yards, two touchdowns and no interceptions. I'll take that stat line from our quarterback every single game.
Thanks, Carson. You took a lot of criticism that should have been aimed at the defense, and you took it all gracefully.
A Decided Lack of Thanks to Chris Cosh
Bill Snyder has to make a change at defensive coordinator this offeseason. I don't care if it's Jim Leavitt or some promising young DC at a smaller school. Snyder came to Manhattan to calm the waters. Bill, the waters ain't never gonna be calmed if the defense keeps turning 10-win seasons by the offense into seven-win seasons by giving up 500 yards per game. The Big 12 schools listed above parlayed fewer points per game into nine- or 10-win seasons. It can be done, but Cosh isn't going to be the one to get it done.
This can't continue. It must change.
Daniel Thomas, Beast
His total yards and per-carry average in the Pinstripe Bowl weren't great, but when a guy puts up three touchdowns while the quarterback throws for 228 yards and two touchdowns, who are we to complain? Thomas had another excellent season for K-State and I wish him nothing but the best in the NFL.
Miscellaneous
Lost in the hubbub over The Salute was the fact that Hilburn had a really good overall game, catching five passes for 84 yards. In fact, the entire group of wide receivers played well, with Chris Harper catching five passes for 56 yards and one touchdown, while Aubrey Quarles caught four for 75.
I liked seeing a little creativity from the offensive coaches. Daniel Thomas should have had a touchdown pass to Travis Tannehill off a fake run out of the Wildcat formation, and he did complete a pass to Coffman later in the game. I'm not particularly a fan of the flea flicker, but it worked, despite an underthrown pass by Coffman.
With that, I'm done. In a few years we'll either look at this as the season that got K-State back on track, or we'll look at it as the beginning of a series of seasons that could have been something special, but for one reason or other, just weren't.
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There were a few among us here
that “stuck by Coffman” during the season’s peaks (offense) and valleys (defense). :-)
All in all, it was good to see my alma mater Bowling again. Here’s to enjoying this year and looking forward to next year (after the rest of this bball season).
'Fact. Bears eat beets. Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica.' --Jim Halpert
I would say "Thanks" to Coffman, if
we didn’t have a QB riding the pine behind him that was twice the athlete he is. It’s not Coffman’s fault, of course, that Snyder refused to play his best QB, but I also don’t feel any strong need to “thank” Coffman for being barely adequate either. With that said, I don’t begrudge those who DO feel such a need to do so. I just hope people understand when many of us have only “good riddance” to say to the memory of watching Coffman play in front of Klein.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 3, 2011 11:56 PM CST reply actions
He played his heart out all season and
never complained once despite knowing almost everyone thought he stunk.
He did stink sometimes, but the overall numbers don’t lie and his bowl performance was one of the all-time great Cats QB bowl showings. His TD throw to Harper couldn’t have been better made by Tom Brady.
So I’ll follow TB’s lead and thank Coffman for being someone tough to root for but in the end well worth it.
My point is,
I think we beat Mizzou if Klein plays the whole game, and probably beat CU as well. At 9-3, 5-3, we would have had a CLEAR progress year. At 7-6, 3-5, not so much. And I just can’t bring myself to thank Coffman for being 1/2 as talented as his backup.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 4, 2011 9:23 AM CST up reply actions
You don't have to thank him for that
But you can thank him for playing his heart out and winning at least one game BECAUSE of him (UCF).
He played good this year, and you can thank him for that, even if you think Klein should have been starting. There is no conflict there. Nobody is asking you to say Coffman is better than Klein, but he played for the team you root for, and he did so with class and heart. As such he deserves your thanks, if not your praise.
Forward into Battle
by ChrisP Wildcat on Jan 4, 2011 9:38 AM CST up reply actions
Agreed.
CC is not the most athletic QB at K-State. But he did what he could (and more?) with his abilities.
If our defense could make a stop or two more per game, then I think we win a couple of more games.
So I agree. Thanks Carson Coffman for a good year at QB. Good luck in the future.
The time for calm and rational discourse is past, now is the time for senseless bickering -Anonymous the Younger
by Anon_the_younger on Jan 4, 2011 9:54 AM CST up reply actions
I can't prove it, but I don't think the game with UCF would have even been CLOSE if it weren't for CC.
The last drive makes people forget that he pretty much stunk the first 55 minutes of the game. With UCLA, the Cats won in SPITE of him. Does he seem like a classy enough guy? Sure. Is it his fault that Snyder wouldn’t bench him for good, even when it was CLEAR Klein was better (post-Texas)? No. But I just can’t bring myself to “thank” him for playing the central role in our offense in a barely adequate manner. The Luis Colon analogy would only hold if Frank had been insane enough to play Lu 30 minutes per game, and ran the entire offense through him. He wasn’t insane enough to do that, so Lu played the part he was talented enough to play.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 4, 2011 12:49 PM CST up reply actions
I just don't understand your viewpoint
He played for your favorite team. He did fairly well and he didn’t cost us any games.
Why can’t you thank him? If Frank had done that with Colon, would that be a reason to NOT thank Colon for his time here? Absolutely not. Once again, nobody is saying you have to claim he was a good QB, with tons of talent. You don’t even have to thank him for UCF (or his bowl game, for which, unlike UCF, he was good the entire game).
This isn’t about saying he was a good player. It’s about alma mater. He played for your school, giving his sweat, blood and tears. For that, you thank him, even if he wasn’t everything you would have wanted athletically.
Forward into Battle
by ChrisP Wildcat on Jan 4, 2011 2:22 PM CST up reply actions
I just can't do it.
And he’s no poorer for not having received my thanks. He received a free education for his trouble, and I have no grudge against him or anything, but I feel nothing but glad that he’s not available to take playing time from far more talented players.
As for the bowl game, several of his 17 completions were very poorly-thrown, including two that would have been TDs. He also had several runs where he gained 2 or 3 yards, where Klein would have had at least 8 or 10, and might have broken them for MUCH longer. I’m not saying he wasn’t trying his hardest, just that trying your hardest doesn’t necessarily merit special thanks, at least for me. I hope life treats him well, but I won’t miss seeing #14 at ALL.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 4, 2011 6:14 PM CST up reply actions
MIGHT have broken them
or might not have. Carson was sacked a total of 24 times this year. He played in all 13 games and most of the minutes in 13 games. Klein entered 10 games this year and hardly played most of the time. HE WAS SACKED 6 TIMES. Just sayin….
I don't get it
Why single out Coffman for thanks? I’ve said many times in responses all season that while I think Coffman was in way over his head as a starting D-1A quarterback, he’s acquitted himself with class and dignity on and off the field. But K-Scott is right – particularly about the bowl game where Klein would have gotten us some serious yards on the ground where the oh-so-typical short-side option was called too many times (once again).
Coffman played awful in the Central Florida game, but saved himself with a well-managed last gasp drive – one he executed beautifully. But save for the Kansas game he was painful to watch. And I’m sorry, but I was at the Pinstripe Bowl and everyone where I sat was saying what I thought and said all season: “Is he scared back there in the pocket? ’Cause he sure looks it.” His numbers in that game may have been swell and his pass to Harper a beauty, but let’s not get carried away. I bear him no personal malice and wish him all the best in his future endeavors. But I’m still trying to figure out how he ever got a D-1 scholarship and the only thing I’m “thankful” for is that I’ll never see him again behind center for the Wildcats.
I think we all appreciate the athletes on ALL the K-State sports teams, and the overwhelming majority of them have always represented our university very well. They do us proud, whether football, women’s volleyball, men’s baseball, or tennis. But while I would like to salute our players, for now I’ll save my salute for only one of them: Adrian Hilburn. That poor kid played his heart out and handled a despicable, cowardly situation with grace and class. Just like a true Wildcat.
EMAW!
By all means, don't single Coffman out
I don’t think Coffman deserves special thanks above other players, but he also doesn’t deserve to be singled out to be denied thanks.
I give thanks to all the players who put on the KSU uniform. Coffman gave me some great moments, such as the pass to Harper. My seat in Yankee stadium gave me a great view on that pass, and that is definitely a KSU play that I will remember.
Coffman’s career may have been too lackluster for some of you (I guess one of the top 5 YPP KSU offenses of all time is not very impressive) but why deny him the basic thanks you would give to ANY KSU player?
I just don’t get it. It seems ungrateful and asinine to me continue to attack Coffman for anything after seeing how truly historically bad our defense was.
Forward into Battle
by ChrisP Wildcat on Jan 5, 2011 8:47 AM CST up reply actions
Just because our defense was historically bad -- and it was --
doesn’t mean that we have to refrain from being critical of any other portion of the team.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 5, 2011 8:56 AM CST up reply actions
Once again
I’m not saying don’t be critical, I’m saying he deserves your thanks.
I’m sorry, but where I’m from, when somebody devotes that much effort and work for you, you say thank you, even if it didn’t turn out as great as you wanted.
Forward into Battle
by ChrisP Wildcat on Jan 5, 2011 9:00 AM CST up reply actions
And that's where we'll have to agree to disagree.
Coffman was well-compensated for what I consider a mediocre (at best) college career. A free education is “thanks” enough, in my view. I do appreciate your not making it personal, though, as another member did below.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 5, 2011 9:04 AM CST up reply actions
By that logic
you wouldn’t thank a soldier who had a mediocre at best service career, as long as he was adequately compensated for his services.
I don’t see the merit in that, and yes, I think you can make that comparison. Obviously the soldier career is much more noble than college QB, but that isn’t the argument.
Or to take it another route, suppose you hire a carpenter to make a cabinet for you. You pay him the standard rate. He puts everything he has into the work, but it still comes out, in your eyes, to only being mediocre. Do you not thank him, just because you’ve paid him?
In my mind, thanks and payment are unrelated concepts.
And to be clear, I’m not calling into question your patriotism, I’m just pointing out the holes in your logic, which to me appear to be gaping wide.
Forward into Battle
by ChrisP Wildcat on Jan 5, 2011 9:23 AM CST up reply actions
Comparing players of a game to soldiers always makes me angry,
so I’ll just leave that alone.
The carpenter analogy is not as bad, so I’ll address that. And the answer is, no, I wouldn’t “thank” a carpenter who had been paid good money to do a mediocre job. I’d give him his money, and never hire him again.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 5, 2011 9:31 AM CST up reply actions
Hence my clarification
I wasn’t comparing soldiers to players, I was comparing their situations, which are similar.
But, the part I forgot to mention about the carpenter is that he is your brother (or sister). Just like Coffman is your KSU brother. You don’t turn your back on family.
It is Bill Snyder Family Stadium for a reason, because those are the values we uphold. Coffman is part of your family, so you should thank him for his effort.
I can see this isn’t getting through, though, so I’ll leave it at that.
Forward into Battle
by ChrisP Wildcat on Jan 5, 2011 10:29 AM CST up reply actions
Coffman seems like a nice guy,
but he’s not my family. Kansas State is my school, and I’ll love them til I die. But the young men and women who play for their sports teams are not my family. They’re not even my friends. They’re simply people who represent my university — a university of which I am proud. Thus, the carpenter analogy was apropos, until you added the “he’s your brother” caveat.
Coffman doesn’t know I exist, and I’ve never interacted with him on any level other than as a fan of my school. So a better analogy is that he’s like a carpenter who’s a friend of a friend. And when I took a few years off from coaching and teaching to run my own business, I once had to fire one of those.
So, as I said before, you’re very much free to thank whoever you’d like (as is TB), but I’m also free to note that I don’t find that player worthy of my own thanks. We’ll just have to agree to disagree on what is worthy of “thanks” as far as college football goes.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 5, 2011 10:41 AM CST up reply actions
If your saying I took it personal
Then you are mistaken. I was watching the OSU vs Ark game and was bored so I commented and then you did and then it became a debate and it was fun for me at least.
No, I was saying that I appreciated you NOT making it personal.
Down below, someone who disagreed with me attacked my previous coaching experience as “coaching powder puff football.” I was saying I appreciated your not having done that kind of thing. I enjoyed the discussion with you as well.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 5, 2011 7:56 PM CST up reply actions
I hear you, ChrisP, I do
but I’m not singling him out to be denied thanks, anymore than I would single him out for thanks. I appreciate that some here are willing to look to the better side of their nature and single Coffman out for thanks. That is laudable. But for those who do not believe it necessary to do so it is not “asinine”. Let’s not make this personal – its a disagreement, that is all. We’re all rooting for the same team and want the best for the kids who put on the Wildcat uniform and wish them no ill.
And as I said above and said many times before, Coffman has always handled himself with class and dignity. I may not like seeing him under center for K-State, but that is not a personal attack on him.
by CT-K-Stater on Jan 5, 2011 11:08 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
+1000000000000000000
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 5, 2011 11:12 AM CST up reply actions
I agree
It’s just a disagreement, nothing personal.
FWIW, I was attacking the argument as asinine, not you as an individual. That seems different to me, but I can see how it could be taken personally.
I apologize for that.
Forward into Battle
by ChrisP Wildcat on Jan 5, 2011 11:49 AM CST up reply actions
Not a problem at all Chris
As I said, we’re all on the same team here and I’d like to think our disagreements are simply that. I know you’re making well-reasoned and logical points (and have been supportive of Carson Coffman all season) and as I said, its laudable that many here choose to thank Coffman. I appreciate that and it is – from my observation – a distinction of class that comes naturally to Wildcat Nation.
An aside: at the Pinstripe Bowl I was sitting next to, but not in, the section with the majority of K-State fans. At the end of the 1st quarter they honored the local five-borough youth athletes in a quick ceremony. I noticed that the entire K-State fan section got up from their seats and gave all those kids a standing ovation, clapping as each was introduced. I looked around the stadium and in every single other area people weren’t paying attention. Maybe that might not seem much to people in the Midwest, but for me, having been born, brought up and lived in the East most of my life, it was noticeable. And I think THAT is something to be proud and thankful about – the overall Wildcat “family” that HCBS always talks about.
And I thank you for your apology, it was unnecessary, but quite big of you. Best.
by CT-K-Stater on Jan 5, 2011 12:02 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Coffman the record holder
CC completed 65% of his passes to take over the KSU single season record.
Which simply shows how little the Comp% stat really means.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 4, 2011 8:11 PM CST up reply actions
So would you rather have
a QB that completes 6.5% of his passes since that stat means so little?!?!
Have you ever heard of a strawman argument?
You just made a classic one.
What I’m saying is that completing 65% of your passes means nothing when combined with all of his other sundry deficiencies. I’m also saying that Comp% is one of the least-useful metrics for measuring a quarterback’s actual effectiveness. Yards/Attempt is MUCH more useful, as are several other metrics.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 4, 2011 8:39 PM CST up reply actions
Heres the bottom line
Coffmen led us to a Bowl game and Klein didnt!! To hell with whatever stats and what he could or couldnt do.
Coffman = Bowl Game.
Whatever.
Klein is twice the player (or more) of Coffman. He proved that against UT, but wasn’t allowed to do it after that. We did what we did this year in spite of the defense, and in spite of Coffman. I feel nothing but relief that Snyder won’t be able to trot out #14 to run the freaking molasses sweep 12 times per game.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 4, 2011 9:05 PM CST up reply actions
He passed the ball 4 times in that game!!!!!!!!
all he proved is that he can run better the Coffman. Am I a little more pumped for next year when we can run the sweep with more speed, yes I am. But when it comes to Kleins passing ability does anyone really know what we are getting?!?!
Sigh...
For the last time, he wasn’t given a CHANCE to show his passing ability. When he DID pass, he had a stronger arm than Coffman, though, which would have been nice, given Coffman’s penchant for underthrowing wide open receivers. But Snyder never gave him that chance, even after he proved, every time he was given the chance, that he moved the offense MUCH more consistently than Coffman.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 4, 2011 9:24 PM CST up reply actions
Wasnt given a chance????????
HE HAD THE WHOLE TEXAS GAME!!!!!!
Klein- 7.67 YPA. Long of 40
Coffman – 7.83 YPA. Long of 73.
THEY NEVER LET HIM PASS THAT GAME!
See, I can overuse caps, too. And I would take a -0.16 YPA for Klein’s playmaking ability with his feet any day. But I doubt he would have actually BEEN -0.16 if he’d actually been given the reins after the Texas game.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 4, 2011 9:35 PM CST up reply actions
If he could pass
then what a better game to have him do it that then UT game?? We had a big lead and if we needed a first down to extend the drive then just rush for one.
I don't even understand what point you're trying to make here.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 4, 2011 9:38 PM CST up reply actions
If he can truely pass the ball
then why didnt our staff have him do that during the Texas game? We had a big lead and it would have been a good time to showcase his arm.
You don't pass when you're up 30.
The next game against Mizzou, he should have started, played the whole game, and been given 15 or so pass attempts. He wasn’t, and I’ve lost a lot of trust in Snyder because of that.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 4, 2011 9:42 PM CST up reply actions
Mizzou game- grrrrr
That Mizzou game is a whole another subject as the QBs were managed like crap that game….
And you honestly think
that is coincidence?
He didn’t have a chance to throw because the coaching staff didn’t believe he could throw. And they’d seen him try for the entire summer and season.
In games his throws were awful. Yes he didn’t have many attempts, but it’s not like he showed flashes.
Perhaps you’ll be proven right next season. Coffman was by no means good this season. But isn’t that all the more reason to believe that Klein can’t throw?
No, it's not.
It shows ONLY that Snyder was overinfatuated with Coffman. Coffman is an average-to-below-average passer, and an AWFUL runner. Even if Klein is a bit behind in the passing department (say, straight up below average), his running ability is SO far beyond Coffman’s that it more than makes up for it.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 4, 2011 9:37 PM CST up reply actions
I'm not sure how you can deduce that's what it shows at all.
This is a tired argument and I’ve been on either side at different times so I’ll end with these thoughts:
1) There’s no doubt Klein is a vastly superior runner. In a running talent + passing talent equation, Klein clearly beats Coffman. But that doesn’t necessarily mean the team would have won more games. Without any threat of even passing, teams would have been able to stack the box even more and stuffed the run. Unless we were going to run a triple option with Klein, DT, and WePo Navy/GaTech style (not worst idea ever haha) I just don’t think it would have meant more than 7-6. So now we’re left with the annoying feeling (and arguments) that Klein, a superior athlete, may have led us to a better season while knowing Coffman, who no one ever had any thoughts might be decent, was never going to do much better.
What would we be saying now if Klein switched in after game 3 and showed what he can do – and led the team to 5-7 season? Would we really say, “well at least we know Colin Klein isn’t the future?” I highly doubt it. It’s all conjecture now. The fact is Klein wasn’t good enough in his few passes this season to make me wonder very much “what if?”
Lastly, I really don’t think favoritism played any part in this unless Coffman really did something special for Snyder in the offseason. Ok, that sounds bad. But seriously. Snyder felt no need to play Coffman last year. What would make him suddenly feel such loyalty at the expense of the success of the rest of the team?
I will take a QB
who is a 4 as a passer and an 8 as a runner, over a QB who is a 6 as a passer and a 2 as a runner any day. Klein has a big enough arm that he could have burnt defenses deep 2 or 3 times per game, and would have broken at LEAST a couple of 15+ runs each game. Coffman has neither of those weapons in his arsenal.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 4, 2011 10:19 PM CST up reply actions
His point remains unanswered
Snyder didn’t show any special loyalty to Coffman last year, so why would that keep him from yanking Coffman this year unless he truly suspected Klein’s abilities to throw the ball and make good decisions?
Your argument that Snyder was infatuated with Coffman, and therefore didn’t sit him, is not based on any discernible facts.
Forward into Battle
by ChrisP Wildcat on Jan 5, 2011 8:53 AM CST up reply actions
For the love of God
This thread has convinced me that while you may have coached some powder puff team somewhere you have no idea what the hell you’re talking about half the time. You can hate Carson all you want but we consistently put up numbers to win. This season was solely and entirely on the defense. End of story, game over, here’s your door prize. But go ahead and blame Coffman, we know you will….
I didn't coach "some powder puff team."
But thanks for making a discussion of the team, personal. That’s a bit ironic, given the cartoon you posted, I would think.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 5, 2011 8:58 AM CST up reply actions
Your entire discussion has been personal
A personal attack on one player, as if he was the only one on the field. A personal attack that you know Coffman sucked and Klien was so much better, because YOU know better than coach Snyder. You’ve made it so personal you can’t even have the decency to thank the kid. Players on scholarship get a free education, but for a five year guy that comes to about 62 cents an hour for the time they put in.
Stop making the discussion personal and step back from your blind rage against Carson. Just let it go or have the decency to thank the kid, but arguing with anyone who wants to thank him makes you look like an a$$hole and petty. Which I know you are neither.
Seriously?
You don’t see a difference between criticizing the performance of a public figure in their public profession, and making that discussion personal to the discussion’s participants? You apparently feel like every Cat fan is somehow obligated to thank Coffman for his play this year. I disagree. I feel no “blind rage” at anyone, only disappointment and a bit of disgust at what I see as a season that could have been MUCH better than it was.
As for the exact amounts that players “earn” from a scholarship, whatever the amounts, they’re getting it to play a game. While I don’t like the hypocrisy of the NCAA making money hand-over-fist on the backs of these young men and women, that’s for another discussion.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 5, 2011 9:37 AM CST up reply actions
Sigh
The fact that you can’t see what you are doing is not commenting on the performance of a public figure is troubling. What you are doing is trying to quash anyone else from having an opposing opinion about said public figure. If I, or anyone else here, want to thank Coffman for giving it his all that’s my prerogative. You’ve reduced yourself to a troll and it is quite unbecoming.
I for one thank the entire team for a better season than last year and the opportunity to watch them in the post season. It’s my hope that next year is even better, but will support them whether they go 13-0, 0-12 or anywhere in between. That’s what families do. If you don’t get the family concept of KSU you wasted your time here.
So, now I'm a troll?
If someone wants to “thank” Coffman for some reason, that’s their right. But I have just as MUCH right to think he’s NOT worthy of being “thanked”, and to explain why I feel that way.
Also, please explain how my comments aren’t “commenting on the performance of a public figure.” Carson Coffman is a public figure. Bill Snyder is a public figure. I don’t think the performance of Carson Coffman is worthy of thanks. How is that NOT “commenting on the performance of a public figure?” You seem very emotional about this. I’m not. My only anger comes in having my fan credentials questioned because I don’t view the football team as part of my family.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 5, 2011 12:04 PM CST up reply actions
This is my last word and then we can all move on.
You commented on the performance of Coffman on the 3rd. Everything else has been in an effort to prove that you are right in not thanking Coffman. That pretty much sums up my definition of a troll. I didn’t say you couldn’t say he shouldn’t be thanked. To spend two days trying to prove yourself right? Come on.
It’s not about the football team as family, it’s about all K-Staters. You’re all family. I’d help anyone of you anyway that I could. I’m not sure how anyone could leave this place and not feel that way. Maybe it’s just me.
There’s no emotion here. I’m just once again trying to reign in an author on this site that has gone out of his way to prove himself right to the very people that make the site possible, the readers. We get it, you don’t like Coffman, let it go.
You really need to look up the word "troll."
Advocating for a position with which you disagree does not make one a troll. And debate and discussion involves disagreement and dissent. This board would be a very boring place if people just said, “Oh yeah, good call Snyder”, and things like that. I don’t begrudge anyone their right to “thank” Coffman for whatever he did that they find “thank-worthy.” But I definitely reserve the right to express my opinion that I don’t feel like thanking him for anything. I also resent your continued mischaracterization of my remarks as somehow meaning that I “don’t like Coffman”, when it’s not HIM that I don’t like, but rather how he performed as QB of the team for which I cheer. It’s also not your place to tell me (or anyone) to “let it go.” You’re the one who made a crack about my supposedly having coached some “powder puff team” or something like that. YOU have made this personal, not me.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 5, 2011 12:55 PM CST up reply actions
Scott
You lose me when you say “I don’t think the performance of Carson Coffman is worthy of thanks.” That is unmitigated crap. I am perplexed by Snyder’s decisions regarding Coffman and Klein. I was not a huge Coffman fan. But the kid did what his Coach asked him to do. He risked his neck. A free education – get f/ing real@!
No, your real anger is at Snyder, but you idolized him for so long that you are hesitant to criticize him. This is how I see it: I don’t understand Snyder’s decision to play Coffman over Klein. I think Coffman’s athletic skills are mediocre at the B/12 level. But Snyder did play him. Coffman, in my opinion, gave it his best effort. He is a kid of good character, and I am proud of him as a representative of my football team. If you can’t discern the difference in tone in comments like these from the gratuitous insults you hurl at Coffman (and other players – like Pullen) then I just give up. There is a way to make OBSERVATIONS about a player’s skill levels without engaging in insults. I don’t like players being insulted, unless the player’s conduct reflects a lack of character.
oh hail the Purple and White
I don't see how calling Coffman's play "mediocre at best"
is engaging in “gratuitous insults.” I also don’t think that playing at a mediocre level is necessarily worthy of thanks. Some disagree with me about that, while others seem to agree.
I’m not mad at Coffman at ALL, though. He seems like a nice guy, which I’ve said over and over and over. My problem with him stems from the fact that he wasn’t a very good QB — nothing more, nothing less. I reserve my true frustration and anger for how Snyder dealt with the Klein/Coffman situation. But that lack of anger at Coffman doesn’t mean that I’m not EXTREMELY pleased that he’s no longer an option under center for my alma mater.
Lastly, where have hurled “gratuitous insults” at Jake Pullen? Did it piss me off when he took to Twitter to insult the fan base? Sure. Was I frustrated and angry when he and Curt displayed a distinct lack of senior leadership at Dillards? Definitely. But I don’t think it’s fair at ALL to claim I hurl “gratuitous insults” at our players. Coffman is not a good football player. Jake Pullen and Curtis Kelly aren’t good senior leaders. Do you find those two statements “gratuitously insulting”? Because I intend them only as statements of my views on the two situations — and isn’t that what discussion forums are FOR?
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 6, 2011 8:31 AM CST up reply actions
It is about the "tone" of your comments
My last take on the deal. I guarantee you most readers here believe that comments like "I don’t think the performance of Carson Coffman is worthy of thanks" sounds like an insult. It does to me. TB thanked Coffman. I think Coffman deserves a thanks, and I am glad he is graduating. I don’t think those two thoughts are contradictory. No one forced you to pipe in with your thoughts about not thinking Coffman “worthy” of YOUR thanks. Some (many) thoughts are better off unsaid.
oh hail the Purple and White
You (and others) think him worthy of thanks.
I (and others) do not. To me that type of disagreement is vital to the health of a discussion forum. I’ve said on multiple occasions that Coffman seems like a genuinely good guy. But if we’re talking about how he performed for KSU (and not what kind of person he is), then no, I don’t think his performance on the field is “thanks-worthy.” Anyone who likes is, of course, free to disagree with that view, but it bothers me when people claim that by expressing an opinion on the skill set of a player, I’m “gratuitously insulting” that player.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 6, 2011 12:48 PM CST up reply actions
The real question IS:
Why do YOU feel such a need to point out your “feeling” (were in that territory, not opinion land, here) that Coffman is not “worthy of thanks.” Opinion is based on observation concerning facts. Your opinion is (and I share it) that Klein should have played more, especially after what we saw in the Texas game. However, the head ball coach made a different choice. Coffman risked his neck, did what the coach asked, and has always been a good representative for our team. For that I thank Carson Coffman. I contend that your statement that Coffman is not “worthy of thanks” is a statement of how you FEEL. That statement is not opinion about his athletic ability. So back to my question: while you have the “right” on this site to vent your “feelings”, I disagree that it adds one damn thing to good discussion, and in fact I believe that type of thing can hurt our program. I have a lot of feelings and opinions that I suppress here, and in everyday life, because, while it might make me “feel” better to vent them, doing so doesn’t advance the ball, so to speak.
oh hail the Purple and White
I expressed that view, because that was brought up in the discussion.
TB “thanked” Coffman, I expressed my view that I did NOT feel like “thanking” him. I think I have every bit as much of a right to express that view as others have to “thank” him.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 6, 2011 9:47 PM CST up reply actions
I am glad we are all clear on THAT
No one has questioned your “right to express” the feeling you expressed, i.e., “I don’t feel like thanking him.” That is not, and really never has been, what this long, long thread is about. To review:
1. TB thanked, or expressed gratitude, to Carson for his service, dedication, etc. TB threw in some stuff about Carson putting up some relatively decent stats; that our real problems this year were the defense (hardly controversial on that part).
2. Thankfulness is a form of gratitude. The antonym for gratitude is ingratitude. Gratitude (a noun) is defined by Merriam as “the state of being grateful.” State, in this context, means a feeling, similar to “I am in a state of hunger” or “I am in a state of bliss.” So ingratitude is not an “opinion” or a “view.” It is a feeling.
3. I believe you are attempting to elevate your “feeling” of ingratitude to the level of an “opinion”, which Merriam defines as “a view , judgment or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter.” Now, I’m a lawyer. I believe many problems today are caused by the inability of many to distinquish between what is a feeling and what is an opinion. So I call it out when I see it. I just do.
4. Which brings me to the question I and others have asked, (and which you have studiously avoided) to wit: why do you have this deep need to express your “state” of ingratitude towards Coffman, a guy who just went out and played ball when Snyder asked him to?
5. Because I don’t expect a reply any different than the ones already supplied (along the lines of “I have a right to do so and what are discussion forums for”, and I was really hoping it wouldn’t come to this) I am going to suggest an answer – an opinion, if you will – based on the evidence YOU have provided: you do it because you are an INGRATE. That is not name calling. It is a slam dunk observation supported by your posts here.
oh hail the Purple and White
You know what? Never mind.
I had posted a reply calling you out particularly for your #5, but it’s just not worth it. I’ll go ahead and let this thread turn into the echo chamber of thanks for Coffman that you guys seem to want it to be.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 7, 2011 2:01 AM CST up reply actions
The Big 10 is still on the clock.
When are these people going to step and admit to the unprofessional nature by which the Pinstripe and Music City Bowls were officiated? In my mind they are not off the hook. And the college football world should not let it go either. Even Regis thought is was a bad call and he is a total ND homer. When it gets to the level of daytime talk shows and not just the sports talk circuit then Houston we have a problem. So once again I ask Delaney and his head of officiating to release a statement apologizing for the inappropriate comments given to Hilburn before he was assessed the penalty. Frankly, it was uncalled for, ill advised and hypocritical in nature. I honestly feel a full investigation should be considered as the timing, point spread and nature of the call by both officials seems dubious. At the very least some sort of suspension should be given to start the beginning of next season to the individuals involved. The time to act is now Big 10 or forever be held in contempt.
Crazy season. If only we had a defense...
What happens when you combine perhaps the best offensive coaching job of the Snyder era with perhaps the worst defensive coaching job? Well, we got to find out this year. I knew the offense was good, but it wasn’t until I compiled the historical numbers that I saw how good. And I had already posted about the historically bad defense before, but I’ll finalize those numbers here as well.
and to think the offensive stats were by and large credited to
A 1 sided attack, mostly running game. Just think if we had the typical Snyder “balanced” offense the entire year.
thanks for the link ...
Good look at how the sides preformed this season.
The time for calm and rational discourse is past, now is the time for senseless bickering -Anonymous the Younger
by Anon_the_younger on Jan 4, 2011 1:51 PM CST up reply actions
performed not preformed .... grumble ... need edit button.
The time for calm and rational discourse is past, now is the time for senseless bickering -Anonymous the Younger
by Anon_the_younger on Jan 4, 2011 8:53 PM CST up reply actions
Anyone listen to Wildcat Insider yesterday
If not, you can replay yesterday’s show here
I like to think that when Fitz talks, he usually knows more than what he actually speaks on the air. And now, even more since the debacle with the Gary Patterson story, I think he also tries to not say anymore than what he should in certain situations. So I found his comments on the future of the defensive staff a little more telling that Snyder might actually give Cosh some sort of move.
But I know I hate people who read into things more than face value…I just think you can speculate a little more on the comments of Tim Fitzgerald.
Well,
I think Fitz owes Wildcat Nation more of an explanation about who leaked to him the fact that Patterson had “agreed” to succeed Prince. I think Fitz was played like a fiddle. In the movie Deliverance. And I am still pissed off about that whole thing. Does anyone think we are where we are today if Patterson had been hired in either 2005 or 2008? He simply is one of the three best YOUNG coaches in the country. Our “leaders” (and I include HCBS in that group) whiffed TWICE! I’m gettin tired of the whiff hires when it comes to football.
oh hail the Purple and White
Shocking to think that after all the complaining about the offense, it wound up being so solid
Wow.
Today at lunch (at Kite’s) I went to grab my wallet from my coat hanging behind a group of guys. One of the guys asked: “Do you think Cosh will still be the defensive coordinator next year?” (or something like that). I jumped in, totally unbidden, and said “God I hope not. You know full well that you four and seven other guys would run for 150 yards on these poor guys.” No one argued, but then, they may have simply been taken aback.
This defense has been historically terrible, the goemaw post proves that. How can Snyder possibly justify keeping the coordinator of that group of clowns? Has he EVER coached a good defense?
Fire Chris Cosh!
I think we need to put all this into perspective.
We SHOULD be offering praise and gratitude to ALL of our players. They gave it their all and did it with class. Carson Coffman played to the best of his abilities and I would like to personally thank him for all of his efforts he put through being a Wildcat.
I’m with KSB with the whole if Klein would have played all season we may have won a few more games theory. The fact is, none of that is Carson’s fault. This all falls on the guy calling the shots – Mr. Bill Synder.
While I’ll never bad-mouth/not thank/etc. Synder because of all he’s done for the University, he’s not perfect. Then again, we would have also won more games if our defense didn’t suck. So actually, this all falls on Cosh.
Surgeon General's Warning: K-State-Mizzou basketball may increase the risk of high blood pressure. Please consult your doctor prior to watching any of these games.
by mystman995 on Jan 4, 2011 1:41 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
Yes - praise for the players
and accountability for the coaches of units that were sorely lacking in fundementals. I’m looking at you Mr. Cosh; I’m looking at you.
by mac attack ict on Jan 4, 2011 4:20 PM CST up reply actions
How did this thread become a discourse on Coffman.
Let’s get back to the real issue at hand and not get sidetracked. Where is the apology from the Big 10? Discuss.
I hope no one's holding their breath waiting on an apology from THOSE guys!
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 4, 2011 9:02 PM CST up reply actions
Is there anything to discuss??
Because its not happening. I have come to terms with it…. kinda
TB thanked Coffman in his post.
Some have agreed. Others have not. As all season, CC at QB has sparked the most passionate discourse amongst BOTCers and Cats fans.
I agree, all KSU players should be thanked for their efforts. Hilburn should know no one blames him. He played a great game and got screwed by the ref. But by the same “exception” logic, Coffman deserves special praise. He was blasted by the fans and the media for much of the season and he never complained. And I don’t care what anyone says. I was at the Pinstripe Bowl. I watched every second of it. The first quarter I kept yelling “Why not put in Klein??” But make no mistake about it, Coffman played a very very good game. It was the best of his career. Sure not every pass was perfect. But Andrew Luck missed a couple last night also. Doesn’t mean he wasn’t superb.
And as far as Klein, he was fantastic against UT. But he can’t throw. He looked bad in his attempts and unless you have no faith in Snyder, the fact he didn’t get a ton of snaps this year is a real indication in his throwing ability (see: Snyder having no qualms pulling Coffman for one armed Grant Gregory last season). Syracuse’s rush defense was its strength (minus the 50 yard run DT had a pedestrian day). Klein’s one series included an absolutely horrid read in which he should have pitched the ball for a likely nice gain but instead kept it for only a couple.
I want Klein to be awesome. But based on this season I’m not getting my hopes up. I’d be surprised to see him starting next year come conference play.
He wasn't given a CHANCE to show his arm off.
And no, I don’t have much faith in Snyder with regards to QB anymore. Every time Klein was put in, he moved the ball more consistently than Coffman. Might Tuggle or Sams beat him out next year? Sure. But that doesn’t mean that Snyder wasn’t out of his mind this year not to play Klein in front of Coffman.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 4, 2011 9:28 PM CST up reply actions
Listen guys, I understand.
Snyder is basically football divinity. Hell, I named my pick set in the regular season Yahoo Pick ‘Em “Snyder = Football Jesus.” But this season completely disabused me of this notion, at least as regards Cosh and Coffman. I just don’t trust him nearly as much as I used to trust him. His work in regards to those two this season just hasn’t passed the “eyeball test.”
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
Still not convinced...
I’ll trust a guy who saw them practice everyday for the past 2 years…and decided to play a senior. Instead of the 19 career attempts(8 ypa!!) we’ve seen, which do include the two outstanding rushing games.
Guess we’ll find out next year.
by WillieWannabe on Jan 4, 2011 10:18 PM CST up reply actions
We saw more in ONE GAME (Texas) from Klein
than Coffman showed all year. And next year may tell us nothing about what might have been this year, since Tuggle or Sams might be better than Klein. That wouldn’t change the fact that Klein was better than Coffman this year.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 4, 2011 10:20 PM CST up reply actions
Name one game where Coffman was that consistently dynamic throughout the game.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 4, 2011 10:33 PM CST up reply actions
Honestly,
that’s the only thing that made any sense to me. Coffman is a great practice player, and a so-so (at best) gamer.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 4, 2011 10:53 PM CST up reply actions
KU
10 carries for 42 yards. 3 rush TDs.
15-16 184 yards and 2 TDs
My 8-year-old nephew could have shredded the KU defense that day.
Just saying.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 4, 2011 10:52 PM CST up reply actions
And my 4 year old baby girl could have ran on Texas
Just saying.
Seriously?
UT allowed 3.5 ypa in the run game this year. KU was putrid. I know you want Coffman to at least be on level footing with Klein, but he’s just not.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 4, 2011 11:05 PM CST up reply actions
vs KSU
Tex gave up 261 rush yards at 5.2 ypa and KU gave up 276. Not much of a difference there with two different QBs but the difference would be the passing stats which I bet you could guess what those look like.
You really don't get it.
KU’s defense is putrid overall. Texas’s run defense is pretty solid. Klein ripped up that defense. Why is is so hard to understand that Klein ripping up a good run defense is better (much MUCH better) than Coffman doing what he did to an absolutely PITIFUL Jayhawk defense? What’s so confusing about that?
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 4, 2011 11:27 PM CST up reply actions
If you're going to accuse someone of not "getting it",
which is pretty demeaning and personal, at least be factually correct.
Rush yard totals against UT:
James Franklin – 118 yards/Derrick Coleman 94 yards
Demarco Murray – 115 yards
Alexander Robinson – 120 yards
Jay Finley – 116 yards
Klein 127 yards/DT 106 yards
Kendall Hunter – 116 yards
Cyrus Gray – 223 yards
Their only good rush defense performances came against Rice, Wyoming, Florida Atlantic, Nebraska (in a bizarre game), and Tech (who ran the ball 11 times). Not exactly a murderer’s row of competition.
Yes, we would have taken those #s over a Cosh-led defense, but that’s still porous. Klein had a wonderful game. No reason to take away from it. But he wasn’t outrunning world beaters.
I give up.
So now saying that someone “doesn’t get it” regarding an argument I was trying to make is “demeaning and personal”? I’ll just leave you guys to it, if that’s how it’s going to be.
For the record, my only point was that Klein destroying the Texas run defense (which gave up only 3.5 yards per attempt) was MUCH more impressive than Coffman carving up a KU defense that was putrid in every way.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 5, 2011 7:59 PM CST up reply actions
KSB, I appreciate your posting style.
You push people to consider their position. I happen to disagree with yours here, but so be it. I’m sure that will happen again and in future we’ll also agree.
That being said, I’m not sure how you don’t think your above post was out of line. “You don’t get it”, “Why is it so hard to understand”, “What’s so confusing” are all different ways of saying, “You are unable to grasp the concept.” You’re not arguing your point. Your arguing how another good poster is unable to unable to understand yours.
No disrespect intended. None (or very few of us) know each other. We’re all Cats fans. But just don’t think that your above post was very fair.
Maybe I don't get it, then.
It seems patently obvious to me that carving up a average Texas defense is far more impressive than carving up a terrible KU defense. That was my only point, and I think it’s a fair one. Is it really debatable that the Texas D was quite a bit better than the Jayhawk D?
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 5, 2011 11:42 PM CST up reply actions
No, that's true.
But the question isn’t “Who had a great game against a better bad defense?”
KU had an awful D. UT’s rush defense/overall defense wasn’t particularly strong either. That’s why it’s tough to figure whether Klein would have meant much more to the team’s win-loss total this season. Saying Klein would have been very good because of how well he played against UT is only slightly less absurd than claiming Coffman at QB would result in 10 wins after seeing his performance against KU.
We’ve exhausted this pretty thoroughly I think. Has been fun. Hopefully next year one of Klein, Sams, Tuggle, or Cosh will be good enough we won’t have to wonder/argue who really should be getting the snaps under center.
I think we can all agree to that
Hopefully next year one of Klein, Sams, Tuggle, or Cosh will be good enough we won’t have to wonder/argue who really should be getting the snaps under center.
Forward into Battle
by ChrisP Wildcat on Jan 6, 2011 8:14 AM CST up reply actions
My money is on the Cosh kid
Does anyone have a theory on the fall off in production by the safety Lemur this year? I mean, when athletes see that the better athletes aren’t winning starting positions at key positions, do YOU THINK that might effect the whole team?
oh hail the Purple and White
I don't doubt that at all.
This year seemed to show Snyder’s propensity to fall in love with the gritty, unathletic white kid at QB, and Cosh is the only one who fits that description.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 6, 2011 12:50 PM CST up reply actions
I believe Coffman being a senior had ALOT to do with it...
Cosh will be a redshirt freshman. I just don’t see him doing it unless he is amazing in practice.
by WillieWannabe on Jan 6, 2011 12:51 PM CST up reply actions
I really REALLY hope you're right.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 6, 2011 12:53 PM CST up reply actions
Last try at this (for me, anyway):
Conference rankings:
Texas scoring defense: #5 (23.7 ppg)
Kansas scoring defense: #12 (34.4 ppg)
Texas run defense: #3 (133.6 ypg)
Kansas run defense: #11 (205.2 ypg) — Which was still 26 ypg better than KSU.
Texas pass defense: #2 (161.6 ypg)
Kansas pass defense: #7 (222.5 ypg)
Texas overall defense: #1 (300.2 ypg)
Kansas overall defense: #9 (427.7 ypg)
Here’s my point: what Coffman did versus KU, in his only true great performance against KU, is by FAR less impressive than what Klein did in the only chance he was really given against Texas. Texas’s defense was by FAR a stiffer challenge than KU’s. The fact that they were the #1 defense in the conference yardage-wise, and better than KU in every single aspect makes that very clear. You guys are, of course, free to believe whatever you like about what would or would not have happened if Snyder had given Klein an actual fair chance to succeed. All I’m saying is that in the one game where he actually received that chance, he was FAR more impressive than Coffman EVER was at any point in the season.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 6, 2011 8:43 AM CST up reply actions
But what Coffman did vs Syracuse
is roughly equal. These numbers are found here and are for all NCAA.
Texas scoring defense: #50 (23.6 ppg)
Syracuse scoring defense: #13 (18.08 ppg)
Texas run defense: #44 (138.58 ypg)
Syracuse run defense: #42 (137.42 ypg)
Texas pass defense: #8 (161.58 ypg)
Syracuse pass defense: #6 (157.58 ypg)
Texas overall defense: #7 (300.17 ypg)
Syracuse overall defense: #5 (295 ypg)
Furthermore, Texas only gave up 8 rushing TDs and Syracuse only gave up 9 rushing TDs.
Obviously Texas was a much better passing defense than rushing defense. Same with Syracuse.
These totals are pre-bowl, though, so Texas’ numbers take into account Klein and DT’s numbers while excluding Coffman’s performance against Syracuse. That obviously makes UTs pass defense look better and their run defense look worse (and vice versa for Syracuse).
So Klein had a great rushing day against an average run defense, and Coffman had a good passing day against an above average to great pass defense.
DT was bottled up save for one run against Syracuse, while he ran roughshod over UT.
Forward into Battle
by ChrisP Wildcat on Jan 6, 2011 9:47 AM CST up reply actions
We were comparing apples to apples with Big 12 games and rankings.
It’s nearly impossible to compare national rankings like this, because the Orange’s schedule was so terrible. And my only point was that Coffman and Klein both had one outstanding game in the regular season — Coffman out of 11 chances, and Klein out of 1 chance — and that Klein’s was FAR more impressive.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 6, 2011 12:53 PM CST up reply actions
correction
The TDs given up I was referencing were passing TDs, not rushing TDs.
Going to show that they could at least stop the pass but seemed unable to stop the run.
But K. Scott’s point about the difference in SOS is a good one, however there is a point of similarity between the two teams. They both played KSU. As we all know we ran all over UT despite barely attempting to throw the ball. We had a hard time running against Syracuse even though we had a decent strat to the running game and we were able to air it out with relative ease.
For some reason our defense had a decent enough game against Texas that we were able to win. If our defense had played the way they did against Syracuse I doubt we would have been able to beat Texas, either.
Which goes to show that almost ALL of the problems we’ve had this year are the fault of the defense. Coffman was not great but he would have been good enough with even an average defense. I think Klein would have had a similar fate record-wise.
I know you think Klein would have moved the ball better, but how much better than a top-5 all-time KSU offense can you get? Maybe if we had had a legend at QB we would have won more games, but I doubt even that, given the putridity of our defense.
Forward into Battle
by ChrisP Wildcat on Jan 6, 2011 1:49 PM CST up reply actions
I think that what Klein would have brought
would have been a consistent threat to free up DT more often. No one was scared of Coffman on any level. I think DT has a more productive season, if Klein had been used appropriately, and the offense would have produced more consistently, instead of in spurts and fits.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 6, 2011 9:49 PM CST up reply actions
THAT is the point
Coffman was a trooper, and at certain times a fair passer (and it has to be said that his games against Kansas, Colorado and Syracuse were better than fair).
BUT, the problem all year was that when teams brought more players up to the line and focused on stopping Daniel Thomas, the KSU run game fell off. We then had to rely on Coffman and the passing game to point our opponent because of our awful defense. Does anyone here – including Coffman supporters – believe that in an offensive-happy era the Wildcats could outpoint teams on a weekly basis? While prolific, we couldn’t outscore Baylor, Colorado, Syracuse or Mizzou. Not the fault of the offense – except that when you can’t stop anyone you have to match (and beat) their offensive production. That was asking too much of our offense, particularly once Broderick, Tremaine Thompson and William Powell all went down.
The idea from the get-go was to run the ball, control the clock, and give the defense rest (or, to be more precise, give an awful defense as little time on the field as possible). Once we started Big-12 play (minus Iowa State) teams had us down cold. Stop DT, you beat K-State. The one time we finally were able to run with abandon on an opponent with any kind of talent that was focused on stopping that aspect of our game was the Texas game. Why? Because Klein added an entirely new dimension.
Fast forward to the next week versus Mizzou, where the Tigers at least could not be surprised by the use of Klein. Let’s compare the numbers:
Coffman passing (11-19 for 170 yards, 1 TD versus 1 INT) and rushing (10 carries, minus 19 yards, and two – TWO – fumbles lost)
Klein passing (4-6, 65 yards, 1 TD, zero INTs) and rushing (18 carries, 141 yards, no fumbles).
That was really the only game where you could accurately compare the two and though they were used differently because they have different skill sets, the results were telling.
All that said, the fault lies with Coach Snyder for asking Coffman to run short-side options on 4th and short in crucial situations (1st series versus Nebraska, 4th quarter versus Baylor are two that immediately stand out) and on too many other occasions. Coffman seemed to know the system very well and clearly Snyder felt more comfortable with him probably for a variety of reasons, including perhaps that Klein never showed an ability to throw consistently well in practice, or that his pocket presence was even worse than Coffman’s.
Who knows? Maybe he felt the Texas game was a one-trick pony.
But when you have a terrible, terrible defense the best thing you can do is pound the rock, chew up the clock, wear down an opponents defense (and confidence) and keep your own off the field. Save for Texas (I don’t count Kansas, because let us be honest here, how many Jayhawk defenders would even be on the second-team Texas D?) we could not do that. And again, a lot of that falls on Snyder not only for refraining from using Klein more, but for not using William Powell more as a change-of-pace before he got injured. The Oklahoma State game was there for the taking…
So, as far as yards/touch, scores, and turnovers go,
the Mizzou game broke down like this:
Coffman, 29 touches, 151 yards (5.2 yards/touch), 1 TD, 3 Turnovers.
Klein, 24 touches, 206 yards (8.6 yards/touch), 1 TD, 0 Turnovers.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 7, 2011 11:43 PM CST up reply actions
I think we all can agree that
next year we will have a QB that can brake some long runs and that will be a wonderful thing to watch!!! I am truely excited for next year!
Who cares either way about Coffman/Klein?
The season is over and no matter what the defense was as bad as it gets in FBS. Let it go. I really want the “Salute” to continue to have traction. Especially now having seen Ohio State escape with a win in the Sugar Bowl will ineligible players. Something is seriously amiss when one conference is given a pass on their bowl game eligibility and then refs from the same conference influence the outcome of not one, but two postseason bowl games. I want Delaney and Co. to apologize to Hilburn. Not for the call but for the egregious comments to our player that are not within the purview of officiating on any level and particularly in the FBS. I want consequences for their actions in the same way that they made Hilburn and KSU pay for their “technically correct” transgression. Enough of the hiding let’s hear their retort. And yes I am talking to you Big 10.
by Catbacker98 on Jan 5, 2011 12:08 AM CST reply actions 2 recs
+1
Let the salute never be forgotten. Throw it up after every touchdown next year. It will be our rally call, and with the whole world aligned against us, we can shout these hallowed words,
“Remember the SALUTE!!”
Forward into Battle
by ChrisP Wildcat on Jan 5, 2011 8:58 AM CST up reply actions
I agree about the salute.
But I think that the Big 10 will show any contrition about their officiating issues when hell hits a cold snap.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Jan 5, 2011 9:01 AM CST up reply actions















