What Did We Learn? Where Do We Go Now?
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 8, 2010 3:39 AM CDT
in Football
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PrintLast night was a debacle, it's as simple as that. But even in debacles, there are lessons to be learned, ways a team can grow, and so on. When I was coaching, and my team took this kind of beating, often we would just look at the game tape as a staff, get what we needed, and move forward. Many times it is the case that a team simply needs to leave such a beating in their rear-view mirrors, and move on to the next game. This is not one of those cases. Some of the mistakes that were made are not things the guys can fix (you can't coach speed, after all), but others are. After the jump, I will take a look at some of the things we learned, and how we can move on from here.
Lesson #1: We have to figure out better ways to hide our utter lack of team speed on defense. I know that Taylor Martinez is a very fast young man. However, when we play against mobile quarterbacks, there has to be some way of getting speed on the field. Even if it's very raw speed. Even if it involves starting green DBs, and sliding our bigger safeties up to LB some. I do not fault the effort of our guys. But you simply can not teach speed. And if we don't have any team speed, even hiding in a raw young DB talent on the bench? Well, then that's a whole other set of issues.
Lesson #2: Sammuel Lamur and/or Collin Klein need to start getting a lot more reps in practice, and Carson Coffman needs to be phased out. I love what he did in that last drive against UCF. However, up until the fourth quarter of that game, he had been a major part of what was wrong with the offense. And tonight? Well, that throw where Aubrey Quarles (I think it was Aubrey, anyways) had beaten his man by 5 yards, and Carson under-threw him by a good ten yards was brutal. His fourth down run on that first drive was equally brutal. I think either one of the other two QBs gets that first down. Coffman was so stinking slow around the end there. And, let's just cut to the brass tacks here: Coffman is not the future of this program. There's a possibility that S. Lamur and Klein are the future of the program (depending, of course, on how this guy works out this spring). And, frankly, I liked what I saw from both guys. They didn't get a ton of passing opportunities, but both avoided turning over, and displayed better mobility inside and outside the pocket than Coffman.
Lesson #3: I really like Chris Harper. I'd like to see more of him. I have no idea why we haven't seen more of him to this point. That touchdown catch was not easy. I'd like to see him become part of the Wildcat Formation packages, as well as see the ball going his way in the passing game more often.
Lesson #4: Recover your opponents' effing fumbles! If we recover both of those fumbles, I think the game tightens up a lot. I honestly don't know how you fix that. I've always felt that you either have a nose for the ball, or you don't. But still, it's a lesson.
Lesson #5: Don't karate-chop your opponents hardened-plastic-covered head with your non-broken hand, unless you really, really, really want to have matching casts on each. Oh, and giving away 15 yards on a boneheaded play is not such a good idea either.
Lesson #6: Daniel Thomas needs help. Please refer back to Lessons #2 and #3.
Lesson #7: Did I mention our defense is really slow?
So, where do we go now? I have to admit, this game leaves me worried about next week. I'm starting to think that my earlier post about where our season might head after a blowout loss was much more prescient than I had hoped it to be. We're heading into KU next Thursday in bad shape. If anyone can get the boys back in winning form, it's Coach Snyder, but our problems run deeper than just confidence, as I noted above. Nebraska exposed our defensive flaws for everyone to see, and every team we play from here on out will be trying to exploit our lack of defensive speed. Hopefully, there are at least two teams left on our schedule that won't be able to do so. I find it difficult to believe that there are many more than 2 or 3 more wins to be had in these last 7 games, unless the issues above are acknowledged and addressed. If we stick with Coffman, and don't make any defensive personnel moves to get more team speed on the field, I think that our best hope is a 6-6 or 7-5 record.
So, tell me where I'm wrong.
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Not sure ...
K-State has had good defenses in the past with players which are not the 5 star rated. IMHO it is how we use our players that is the issue. We had some good plays on D last night but then we had some awful plays as well which to me suggests that our schemes are not the best.
The time for calm and rational discourse is past, now is the time for senseless bickering -Anonymous the Younger
by Anon_the_younger on Oct 8, 2010 7:28 AM CDT reply actions
No idea on
where the wins come from to be honest. I think the assessment that a final record of 6-6 or 7-5 is probably pretty accurate. Not only was the D slow but in quite a few instances they took bad angles or didn’t make the tackle when had the chance. I just don’t think can win in the Big 12 with Coffman in there at qb, hamstrings the whole team.
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Coffman isn't great, but he did what was asked of him
He did a little running, and he was reasonably accurate throwing. Yes, it is shameful that the team averaged less than 5 yards per attempt, but I think that has more to do with the fear of the NU D and thus play calling than Coffman.
After all the ragging on him I’ve done, I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I believe Coffman gives the Cats the best chance to win against the remaining foes. However, I would like to see more of Klein and Lamur, if only in special packages. You’re right, maybe one of them does get the 1st down on that 4th down call. But I don’t know if I trust that they can complete ~60% of their passes (that pick was meaningless).
I want to see more of William Powell in the games. Yes, DT is good (I think the “DT is great” ship has sailed), but WeePo is faster and a good change of pace.
I don't measure a man's success by how high he climbs but how high he bounces when he hits bottom. - Gen. George S. Patton
by Sean T on Oct 8, 2010 8:00 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
+1
Though I will qualify by saying that I don’t necessarily oppose changing QBs.
This is a Nebraska secondary that forced Jake Locker to go 4/20 for 71 yards 1 TD and 2 INTs.
Coffman was 14/22 for 91 yards and1 TD (as stated above, that INT was meaningless).
Considering that his receivers were well covered most of the game, I think it is incredible that Coffman completed as many passes as he did. He was throwing into some very tight windows, and I think even Manning would of had trouble completing passes (I’m only half joking).
And it pains me to say it, but DT looked pretty awful last night. I’m not saying he had the holes that Martinez or Helu had, but he was sooo slow in hitting whatever holes he did have. And almost every time he caught the ball out of the backfield he would fall down in some frustating manner.
So I say take it easy on Coffman. He did exactly what was asked of him (and, for the most part, so did the offense). The defense was atrocious. On that 80 yard Martinez run, I could have ran for a gain of about 20 before there was anyone unblocked who could have hit me (news flash, I’m not in the greatest shape). I don’t care how fast he was, if we had been able to put consistent pressure on him so that he actually had to create misses in the backfield, that would give the rest of our defense time to catch him after only a modest gain (5-20 yards) instead of letting him run behind blockers for twenty yards and then he is already behind the whole defense.
That, and we really need to work on taking better angles.
by ChrisP Wildcat on Oct 8, 2010 8:26 AM CDT up reply actions
That interception may have been meaningless
but let’s not forget that he threw another pick that was wiped off the board due to an offsides penalty. Coffman has a weak arm, NU did not respect our passing game (see PJ Smith’s comments here) and why should they. What have we done this year to suggest any team should worry about the pass? Coffman cannot beat you deep even if our receivers can, so there is no point in asking the safties to play the pass. That leaves 8 or 9 guys to play DT. I’m sorry Sean T but you’re way off base saying the “DT is great” ship has sailed. No one player can overcome a D on their own. DT is great IMO, he just needs some help!
by purple_on_white on Oct 8, 2010 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions
that nullified interception
would have wiped out the other interception, and the penalty was pass interference.
Again, not saying Coffman should remain QB, but let’s not be too hard on him, he did exactly what was asked of him.
And DT is an above average running back who will do well in the NFL. I just don’t think he is the transcendent talent I thought he was before this game.
by ChrisP Wildcat on Oct 8, 2010 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions
My mistake
i stand corrected, you are quite right, that was the pass interference call. I guess I’m too used to blaming all our passing woes on Coffman’s arm. Which I still think is too weak to put fear in any team’s defense.
by purple_on_white on Oct 8, 2010 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions
Even Palmer pointed out one thing that I don't like
That incompetent twit Palmer (no one in history has run a 4.0-40 yd dash) did have a point I think in that DT wasn’t as aggressive as he should be. Too much diddling around in the backfield waiting for something to happen. What happened to the pound ’em aggressiveness we saw (and admired) against UCLA and ISU? Is DT hurt? Is he already tired? If so, we need more WeePo.
Also, Wilson didn’t do much of anything blocking yesterday (to be sure, he wasn’t in the game much with all that 1-back stuff KSU was trying). I’m unimpressed with him too.
I don't measure a man's success by how high he climbs but how high he bounces when he hits bottom. - Gen. George S. Patton
4.0 40 yard dash
I heard that too, what an boob
by purple_on_white on Oct 8, 2010 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions
I found a fantastic write-up yesterday about how fast Usain Bolt would run the 40
Yes, he does specialize in something 2.5 times longer, but he is one seriously fast SOB. The guy calculated that he would be ~4.38. I don’t buy 4.1s from the NFL combine either.
I don't measure a man's success by how high he climbs but how high he bounces when he hits bottom. - Gen. George S. Patton
I'm with on WeePo
I’m done with Carson. I was a big fan, even before the drive 2010, but we have to take presure off the running backs through the air or on the ground. Everyone wanted Roberson to wait because he was mistake prone, in the end it was the right thing to do.
If this is Coffman doing what he's asked to do
then I’m afraid it’s going to be a long season. I agree that our game plan did not put a lot of pressure on Coffman. To me it looks like our coaches are coaching around (to avoid) Coffman. They understand he is not talented enough to throw the ball deep (and by that I mean anything over 20 yards) or run the ball with any consistancy, so what are you left with?
This does nothing to give me confidence that he’s our best chance going forward to win ball games.
by purple_on_white on Oct 8, 2010 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions
I voted for the under....
but I’ll be rooting for the over. I like and repect K-State, regardless of the fact that some of their fans “Hate N.”
Of course, you don’t hate the mediocre…only the ones that can and have hurt you, repeatedly. Kind of like how I feel about Albert Pujols or Jim Edmonds versus how I feel about Aaron Miles. I don’t hate Aaron Miles. (At least I didn’t, until he joined the Cubs.)
It would have been fun to watch a Bishop led Wildcats team against the current Husker squad, but of course, our series has come to an end. With sadness, we bid you all adieu. A good percentage of us might not acknowledge it or even be aware of it yet, but we will miss you guys. Best of luck the rest of way.
(Hate to say it Mr. Bailey, sir, but I told y….ah, screw it. GBR!)
Thanks Omaha
This is shaping up to be a special season, even if your D isn’t up to snuff with last year’s. Now please crush Colorado for me, will you?
I don't measure a man's success by how high he climbs but how high he bounces when he hits bottom. - Gen. George S. Patton
Hey sean
Just wanted to say thanks for the kind words over on CN, I’ve enjoyed talking football with most of you guys this last week, I think you’re a QB and a few defensive linemen away from having something really special in Manhattan, I’ll be watching “WeePo” for the rest of his tenure at K-State, I think he’s gonna be great for you guys…anyways, good luck in the future, win out your season will ya, makes us look better :) late
+1
K-Staters proved themselves to be informed, intelligent fans who reciprocate the way they are treated. I enjoyed reading the comments on the message boards and such for the last couple of weeks, good X and O talk with an entertaining streak of cynical humor from a lot of you guys.
I won’t name names, but there are other fan bases I don’t hold with quite the same esteem. (SHOW ME…some class please. Or some literacy.)
Again, best of luck the rest of the way. We’ll do our best to take it to Rae Carruth’s alma mater Sean…if you guys will do to Misery what Vietnam did to John J. Rambo’s mental condition.
"K-Staters proved themselves to be informed, intelligent fans who reciprocate the way they are treated." Amen, and same for NU fans.
Now if only we could ban our own trolling cousins, both sides would be in good shape.
I hope KSU can beat MU, but with the defensive “speed” and offensive issues the Cats have, it is going to take a good game to beat even KU. Yikes.
I don't measure a man's success by how high he climbs but how high he bounces when he hits bottom. - Gen. George S. Patton
Missouri's gonna rape us like a prison bitch.
Sorry, but it’s the truth. With any luck, neither that game nor the Baylor game will be on TV, because I really don’t want to have to watch the carnage.
I'm quick to call out bad fans, so I have to be quick to call out good ones too.
Thanks, but I think KSU needs more than some defensive linemen. LBs are weak too. The CBs are solid, the safties have regressed and the D-line too small and doesn’t have much depth. Yikes. Mind if we steal the other-Pelini from you guys to coach our D?
I don't measure a man's success by how high he climbs but how high he bounces when he hits bottom. - Gen. George S. Patton
We need about three more years of decent-to-above average recruiting.
Nothing short of that is going to fix this mess.
Really
Surprised with what KSU’s got at QB. Normally the pattern is one good passer, one good runner. Coffman was neither, Klein was a pseudo runner. Lemour, whatever his name is, could be the guy, why doesn’t he play more? Coulda seen a lot more problems with that dude than with what KSU trotted out the other night.
From your lips
to Football Jesus’s Coach Snyder’s ears. I normally don’t question his decisions much, but I can’t figure out why Coffman keeps playing, given his spectacular mediocrity.
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 9, 2010 2:35 AM CDT up reply actions
Current projections have us back inside the Top 40 next year.
This is big as we have been in the Top 60 for over 5 years.
by Catbacker98 on Oct 10, 2010 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions
Nebraska
Will beat CU, but it will probably be an ugly last minute struggle. No matter their rank, status, player abilities, whatever, CU will always hang with us. It sucks, and it’s a pain, but normally we drop the hammer on ‘em somewhere in the competition and put ’em away. They’re like a chick on the Jersey Shore, just never as easy as they should be, but in the end you still get satisfaction.
I disagree. I hate KU and they're patently mediocre.
And besides, I no longer hate Nebraska. The series is over, so you’re dead to me now. I’ll pretty much ignore your existence from here on out. Isn’t that much better?
Wellllll...
…that is probably a matter of context and personal preference. Indifference or indignation?
Either way, you better be prepared to ignore college football altogether for awhile if you want to avoid being confronted with us, know what I mean?
No.
Ohio State and Florida are routinely ranked high the last decade-ish and I am easily able to ignore them while still following and supporting Kansas State and NCAA football in general. I see no reason why it will be anymore difficult to do the same with NU – them and Ohio State are in the same conference soon anyways.
'Fact. Bears eat beets. Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica.' --Jim Halpert
Can anyone explain
The theory behind a three down line? We never used it and I just don’t get it.
Also, why do we not have a new DCo this morning?
It is supposed to be good because you can then drop 8 into a zone coverage, or "blitz" one and not hamstring your defense
Zone coverage means that every part of the field is covered in theory… but when there is no pressure on the QB (not the fault of a 3-man line, or even 3+1) that just means there are holes left in the D intentionally.
I don't measure a man's success by how high he climbs but how high he bounces when he hits bottom. - Gen. George S. Patton
I miss Vic
I agree, the defense did not improve throughout the game. There were no adjustments, which is a sign of bad coaching, IMO. Also, going back to the talk of our D being so slow, yes but that was not really what killed us last night. We were out of position b/c our LB and safties continued to overplay the zone read! we took bad angles to the ball, their O-line was getting to the LB and their receivers were dominating our DBs. Martinez is fast, but he was never touched! He didn’t make people miss, he just ran down the wide open lane to the endzone. You may be calling for more speed, but I say get more physical. Meet the blockers at the point of attack and then shake them off!
by purple_on_white on Oct 8, 2010 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions
I saw the same thing
Seemed like our LB/DBs were often just running up to their O-line to make it easier to be blocked. No force at point of attack, just let NU choose where they wanted to drive us.
Because Bill Snyder is loyal to a fault.
It was his undoing in 2004 and 2005, and it might well be his undoing this time around, too.
What about GG last year?
He benched him. I was a pretty loyal coach, but if a player of mine were playing as consistently mediocre as Coffman, he would have been on the bench.
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 8, 2010 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, at least our band was better
Don’t know if they showed half-time on TV, but the ENTIRE Nebraska band put down their instruments while the pit played ‘Single Ladies’ and they danced to it! Worst half-time show ever.
Though as a former band member I do not ever condone the booing of an opponents band, even if they have such an abysmal show.
Done with Carson too...
He seems like a competitive guy…but he can’t run, and he can’t throw particularly well. At a certain point, you need a QB who can make things happen. Right now – K-State has zero ability to move the ball without DT getting on a roll…and there are too many weapons out on the edge (Harper, Quarles, WeePo out of the backfield) to limit yourself to that.
I’d like to blame team speed for the D getting burnt, but to my eyes, it looked more like bad assignment football defending the option. That’s coaching. It can be fixed…but the coaches are partly responsible for the team being unprepared for that offense.
by The Gentleman Masher on Oct 8, 2010 9:25 AM CDT reply actions
Over
I think the 7-5 is spot on, but if it’s wrong I think KState will do better— I would even guess 9-3. This game will help wake them up like the Jackrabbits did for my Huskers. Mizzou has serious problems on run offense and their QB isn’t ready to do it alone. Baylor’s RG3 might give you guys some problems, but he doesn’t have the team around him for blow outs- that might be a loss. KU, NTex will be easy wins. CO is a push like IState, but KState pulled that one out, too. Texas = Mizzou. Could win that one too. I think only Oklahoma State is the only sure loss coming up. If the Huskers falter, KState could take their place in the north yet. Snyder’s a good coach who finds the way to win the tight games and hopefully he’s finding a good coordinator to keep it going. Klein looked good, and with him, KState starts to look like the Huskers on offense. Either way, some good games coming up.
If the Cats were going to 'wake-up' it should have been in the last 12 days
UCF should have been a loss. I still don’t know how KSU pulled that one out. That isn’t inspiring. Thanks though.
I don't measure a man's success by how high he climbs but how high he bounces when he hits bottom. - Gen. George S. Patton
by Sean T on Oct 8, 2010 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
No, it wasn't a wake up call
Unfortunately everyone, including myself, was patting each other on the back for the big comeback. Instead of using it as a wake up it turned into a “hey look at our QB, ain’t he great?” love fest.
This is a wake up, like TxTech last year…hopefully. We’ll find out if we put a shellacking on KU or just roll over.
I appreciate the kind words...
…but what you guys are doing today is the Internet equivalent of politely clapping for a team you just hung 50 on in Memorial Stadium.
Yes, it’s nice, but it’s simultaneously infuriating. I’m really not going to miss these beatdowns at all.
it's a fine line to walk
between talking with a team you just beat and being a douche bag of the highest order.
Yes it is.
And I think you’re managing to stay well on the right side of that line. A few of your compadres, not so much, as a few of them have either been warned or banned, but every fan base has their d-bags, for sure.
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 8, 2010 5:02 PM CDT up reply actions
yep
times we live in i’m afraid, back in my day (I’m 28) if you said something to someone that was disrespectful you got punched in the mouth, internet created a lot of cyber john wayne’s..message board tough guys, lol.
For sure.
I love the internet, but I definitely DO miss the days when cocky SOBs got what was coming to them.
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 8, 2010 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions
After last night
I wouldn’t call KU an easy win. A rivarly game and a chance to get their season turnaround on national television. It, like all our games minus last night, will be a nail biter.
I'm still kind of processing last night
and what it might mean for the Big Game this week. I’m hoping it shakes the team up enough to make some serious — and very much NEEDED — changes. If it does, I think we win handily next Thursday. If not, Thursday could be VERY embarrassing indeed.
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 8, 2010 8:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Not here to troll
Just wanted to say thanks for great games over the years. (Even ‘98…well, maybe not ’98.) One of my favorite moments from last night’s game was the Happy Birthday serenade for Snyder – that guy is pure class.
I’d peg you guys at 8-4 the rest of the way, with wins at Kansas, Baylor, Colorado and North Texas.
Hope I'm wrong
But I think KU game is a toss-up and after that I don’t see a game where ksu would be favored to win in Big 12 play
www.big12hoops.com
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I don't measure a man's success by how high he climbs but how high he bounces when he hits bottom. - Gen. George S. Patton
I was really hoping that the stadium would sing him happy birthday
I’m so glad they did! That is great. Now if only the team would have #$*#* shown up! Take care Cheeseandcorn.
I don't measure a man's success by how high he climbs but how high he bounces when he hits bottom. - Gen. George S. Patton
Baylor? No.
I predict that against us, Robert Griffin will score about as much as Taylor Martinez did. It will be obscene.
Lamur or Chris Harper
He HAS to play, I dont care if he/or Chris does not throw a pass, run some form of option all day. This is too 1 dimensional and Coffman does not pass the ball well enough to make up for his lack of speed and poor decision making (not throwing the ball away)
How would running the option all day
be less one-dimensional than the offense is now? 0.o
To my eyes, I did not see Klein make a single throw that Coffman wouldn’t make – he can run better but given a larger role he may prove mistake prone. The coaches obviously see (or think they see) something in Coffman to keep starting him over Klein and Lamur…
'Fact. Bears eat beets. Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica.' --Jim Halpert
I have to agree
that Coffman is the QB the coaches feel is overall best. I can’t imagine that Coach Synder would bench Lamur or Klein if they continually outperformed Coffman in practice. My guess is Coffman is keeping his starting job because he knows the offensive better than the other two.
by purple_on_white on Oct 8, 2010 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions
Simplify the play book - and get an athlete under center
Snyder’s vaunted thick play book may be holding us back. He simplified it for Bishop – and look what happened. Get an athlete in there and then let a bunch of them go out there and play football and make plays.
oh hail the Purple and White
The problem is
how much more simpler can it get?
Surgeon General's Warning: K-State-Mizzou basketball may increase the risk of high blood pressure. Please consult your doctor prior to watching any of these games.
+1
Some school yard football works fine when you’ve got the athletes and you simply have more talent than the other teams, and at WR, I think KSU stacks up nicely!
I don't measure a man's success by how high he climbs but how high he bounces when he hits bottom. - Gen. George S. Patton
But let's look at the play calling:
Carson hands the ball off to DT.
Carson runs the option.
Carson runs the ball himself.
Carson throws a screen to DT.
Carson throws a really short pass to a wide open receiver.
Carson throws a deep ball (usually underthrown) – never in stride with our receivers whether they catch it or not.
Now tell me why a faster QB with a stronger arm can’t be our quarterback?
What mistakes would Klein/Lamur make that Coffman isn’t allowed to make anyway? People say that Carson is just doing what he’s asked – which is fine. But the fact is, he’s not asked to do much at all – so why all the support?
I just don’t see anything so far that an inexperienced QB in Klein or Lamur can do that Carson has already done. If he knows the offense better than those two – don’t you think we would have seen something that shows us that by now?
Surgeon General's Warning: K-State-Mizzou basketball may increase the risk of high blood pressure. Please consult your doctor prior to watching any of these games.
And to defend Carson a little bit
I think our offensive line is extremely over rated. We have pretty good experience in this group – just a lack of talent. When was the last time it felt like Carson had a lot of time to throw or DT had a good running lane?
Surgeon General's Warning: K-State-Mizzou basketball may increase the risk of high blood pressure. Please consult your doctor prior to watching any of these games.
I agree with this.
I don’t know the specifics of how highly regarded your OL was, but my impression from watching games the past few weeks is that DT got an awful lot of yards on his own after contact. He created holes where there were none.
by Chris Wilson on Oct 8, 2010 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions
Sadly, I agree after the last two games
the middle of the KSU should be fantastic. It isn’t.
I don't measure a man's success by how high he climbs but how high he bounces when he hits bottom. - Gen. George S. Patton
Agree on the offensive line
I thought it was better than it actually is. I was a Coffman supporter. My point about Snyder is he expects his QB to make the “perfect” adjustment at the line before snap, EVERY PLAY. Not going to happen all the time. I just say get the athletes in there, and quit overworking DT. He looked tired last night. Powell can get us some yards on the run and the short pass – his hands are fine.
oh hail the Purple and White
Have we not?
I heard Stan Weber talk about the impact Carson Coffman has had on the running game from an audible stand point. It was a few weeks ago, but I think it’s worth considering. According to Weber, Synder’s offense relies on the QB to audible as much as an NFL team’s offense does. He was giving Coffman credit for getting the offense in the right play, be it run or pass.
I’m not sure Stan was right or wrong, but I’m also not in that huddle. How can you measure someone’s knowledge of the offense by simply watching from the sideline? I am not a fan of Coffman but I’m going to trust Synder is going with the QB he feels can best run his offense.
by purple_on_white on Oct 8, 2010 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions
Maybe
But are those the plays that yielded a one touchdown last night the right plays? For all the yards we earned last night, I’d hate to see the “wrong” plays being called. Maybe it’s not Carson’s fault. But those “right plays” can be done by Lamur or Klein.
Why does this half to be so complicated? Why can’t we run an offense that checks back to the sideline like so many other teams do?
Surgeon General's Warning: K-State-Mizzou basketball may increase the risk of high blood pressure. Please consult your doctor prior to watching any of these games.
Can those "right plays" be done by Lamur or Klein?
I’m not sure. Look I am not saying that I don’t want to see what Klein or Lamur can do; I’m just saying that they haven’t been given much of an opportunity to prove anything in a game. And that has to speak to their play in practice. I throw out the “knowledge of the offense” argument because I can’t imagine Synder benching more talented people if they grasp of the offense as well as Coffman. Coffman is doing something better than those guys. It could be consistency or fewer turnovers in practice than the other guys, who knows.
by purple_on_white on Oct 8, 2010 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions
And with Bill's steel trap to the media
I suppose we’ll never really know. I’d just like to think that with our current roster, at least some combination of those players can breathe a little life into this enemic offense…
Surgeon General's Warning: K-State-Mizzou basketball may increase the risk of high blood pressure. Please consult your doctor prior to watching any of these games.
How about 2 QBs?
I don’t get why Coffman doesn’t play for two downs, and then have one of the others run in for a down or two. Call the damned play from upstairs and let the boys run it!
I don't measure a man's success by how high he climbs but how high he bounces when he hits bottom. - Gen. George S. Patton
I'm not a fan of playing 2 QB's
It’s all about momentum and flow. RBs you can do that to – just look at how San Diego utilizes Sproles.
Surgeon General's Warning: K-State-Mizzou basketball may increase the risk of high blood pressure. Please consult your doctor prior to watching any of these games.
That is true...
One thing that struck me when Klein came in was how he had to call a time-out because he almost let the play clock run-out while calling an audible.
It reminded me of Roberson. That guy was always running the play clock out.
by ChrisP Wildcat on Oct 8, 2010 11:49 PM CDT up reply actions
LOL
Yeah, it would really SUCK to have to put up with Roberson letting the play clock run down now, wouldn’t it? I can live with that MUCH better (when it’s combined with Klein or Lammur’s athleticism) than I can with Coffman’s gritty mediocrity
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 8, 2010 11:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Indeed I am...
Why not be? :-D
'Fact. Bears eat beets. Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica.' --Jim Halpert
We are 1 dimensional in our straight forward run game...
and zero dimensional pass game.. a 2 dimensional run game, I believe would be more effective. I am sure a more athletic QB can ,ake a couple of throws to keep the D honest ala Matt Miller (obviously not shooting for the stars here)
What is a two dimensional
run game? To me, that seems silly. I think Lamur and Klein can pass ‘ok’ – seem no worse than Coffman to my eyes – but there is certainly some reason holding them behind Coffman. Lately, with Snyder and his staff, I’m not sure what that could be… seems anything from playbook knowledge to practice attitude to simply sticking with his guns. I don’t think any QB we have would have put up any more points than 13 let alone enough to win with the defense’s performance last night.
'Fact. Bears eat beets. Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica.' --Jim Halpert
I disagree
I think either Lammur or Klein gets that first down on that opening drive. Coffman is PAINFULLY slow, and that’s why he didn’t get there. If one of the other two had been in there, I think we pick up the first down, and either get a TD or a FG out of that drive. And who knows what they might have been able to do with a wide-open Quarles 5 yards behind the NU secondary? Surely they would have done better than underthrowing him by 8 to 10 yards. If that pass had been on the money, it looked like Quarles could go to the house. Between those two plays, we’re looking at 10-14 points. I’m sure those plays were at the top of Coach Snyder’s mind when he said that the QB competition was now back open to some extent.
I guess what i’m saying is that either Lammur or Klein would have most likely gotten us into the 20s last night, and — by controlling the ball longer, kept NU’s score down into the upper-30s or lower-40s. In other words, at least a somewhat respectable game.
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 8, 2010 10:39 PM CDT up reply actions
A lot of
assumptions on what the #2 and #3 QB’s could or could not do in that statemet though, KSB…
I see your angle, but at this point who knows… seems we have 3 QB’s that are OK but have their own problems…
'Fact. Bears eat beets. Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica.' --Jim Halpert
True enough
but Coffman’s “shortcomings” are of the variety that are exploited by a game like Nebraska. He was so outclassed on a talent-level basis that it might have been nice to see more of the two guys that are closer to Nebraska-level talent-wise.
"Everybody gets one chance to do something great. Most people never take the chance, either 'cause they're too scared, or because they don't recognize it when it spits on their shoes. This is your big chance, and you shouldn't let it go by..."
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 11, 2010 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions
What we learned
is that Nebraska has a better football team than us this year. I don’t think any of the things we “learned” about our Wildcats in this game is anything that most realistic fans didn’t already know. Our defense isn’t very good, not enough size up front, not enough athleticism in the back. Our qb is a game manager at best, who is asked by the coaches to just not lose us a game. DT, just like any good running back(see Sproles circa 2004) can be bottled up by a good defense that doesn’t have anything else to worry about. With all that being said I don’t think it’s time to scrap what worked pretty well during a 4-0 start. I’m convinced that Nebraska is the best team we will face all year. With a possible few exceptions(MU, OSU) the rest of the teams on our schedule are more like teams we have already beaten. Anyway, I’m tired of thinking about this game we’ve got ku next Thursday in lawrence, I say let HATE WEEK begin.
Looking long-term
Last night was a tough one for KSU, but I think you are still a team on the upswing. I don’t know hat is more impressive: six wins last year or starting this season 4-1. And I think you’ll get some wins. You will probably be favored over KU. So don’t lose sight of how far you’ve come. You beat an ISU team that throttled Tech and a UCLA team that destroyed Texas.
But last night you didn’t match up well against NU on either offense or defense. Martinez is a freak the likes of which we Husker fans haven’t seen in a decade. Last year our offense was bad, but the coaches also became overly-conservative due to injuries, the defense, etc. KSU’s offense still had to face an experienced DL even without Suh, and arguably the best secondary in the country. That’s a tough matchup.
Long-term I think KSU needs to become much more athletic on defense. Yes, the LBs were out of position but they also didn’t have the athleticism to cover their mistakes. KSU teams of the 90s and early 2000s covered a lot of their mistakes by just being athletic.
I also think this season you lack a good change of pace back behind DT. Coffman isn’t going to beat anyone with his arm, but he is decent in a conservative offensive game plan. A back you can rely on to catch passes out of the backfield might serve your needs very well. They tried that with DT the first series or two, but that just isn’t his strength.
Don’t lose the faith. You still have one of the most respected coaches in the Big 12, and this team looks night and day different from a Prince-coached squad.
Thanks
I hope you’re right (I didn’t see them to know the difference) that this team looks different from Prince’s teams.
It saddens me that you don’t even know about the Cat’s change of pace back, William Powell! That goes to show how under-used he is in the normal game plan. He’s the same guy who keeps threatening to take a kickoff back for a TD. He’s little but his quick and seems pretty tough. Isn’t that the perfect compliment to big (and amazingly shifty for his size) DT?
I don't measure a man's success by how high he climbs but how high he bounces when he hits bottom. - Gen. George S. Patton
After I posted this...
Some Husker radio guys were raving on Powell, wondering where he’d been all year and during the game. Checking the stats I see he had only 12 carries entering the NU game, but averaged over 11 yards a carry. Three rushes for 10 yards on Thursday.
No, he seems to really be the perfect compliment to DT, and IMO cutting down DT’s touches per game would help the squad in the latter stages of the year.
DT looked seriously tired at the end of the ISU game
And I’m sure he’s feeling beaten up after all those pretty useless carries in the NU game too. He’s a horse, but he can’t do it alone!
I don't measure a man's success by how high he climbs but how high he bounces when he hits bottom. - Gen. George S. Patton
Powell doesn't need more touches, in my view.
He gets just about the right amount with 4 or 5 carries per game, plus his kick returns (which our defense so kindly provides him). I think what needs to happen is we need to get a genuine running threat under center, and start giving that person (either Lammur or Klein) 10-12 runs per game, and start actually handing the ball to the receiver in motion 3 or 4 times per game. With Powell, there’s most likely a REASON he’s reached his senior year, and is still a backup. If we start giving him even 7 to 10 carries per game, he might break down a bit himself. No, I think his workload is about right at this point, and that fresh blood at QB could really help solve what ails our offense.
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 9, 2010 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions
Then I would suggest
that my original point of needing a change of pace back is still valid. A guy that can give 8-12 productive touches a game from the RB spot means a lot when you rely on a guy regularly getting 27-35 touches a game.
The running QB would certainly help, but its hard to game plan 4-5 WR endarounds a game, IMO.
by Chris Wilson on Oct 9, 2010 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions
It's not that hard
You just run that ACTION about 15 times per game, with QB runs, RB pitches, and other such things off of it when you don’t hand off. But every so often, you actually DO hand off, and see how much you can get. I think my ideal split would be:
D. Thomas: 20-23 carries, 4 to 5 targeted passes.
Lammur or Klein: 12-14 carries.
Powell: 4 to 5 carries, 1 or 2 targeted passes.
WRs (probably Harper and/or Thompson now that Brod’s hurt): 4 or 5 end-arounds.
FB: 2 or 3 carries
That gives us 42 to 50 rushing plays per game. With KSU currently averaging right at 64 possessions per game, , that leaves us needing to pass 14 to 22 times in a given game. Somehow, I think Lammur or Klein could handle that type of throwing workload.
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 9, 2010 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions
We seem to agree on the need to diversify.
You might be able to provide better examples, but the only BCS-level school I’ve seen run that effectively on a consistent basis is Groh at Wake Forest.
Groh?
I think you mean “Grobe”, but either way, I think it’s our only real hope this year. Pass to keep them honest (14 to 22 times), and pound the daylights out of them with DT and a good running QB (which Coffman, definitely, is not).
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 9, 2010 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, sorry. Wrong ACC coach.
Don’t know what I was thinking.
No prob
but, like I said, whether it’s commonly done or not, I think it might be NECESSARY for this version of the Cats to have any real success.
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 9, 2010 4:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Ok I have to step in a quick second here...
Any real success? By any measure a 4-1 start IS success. Did it look pretty…no. But many times my golf shots are horrible but it still shows a par on the card. So before we go calling for wholesale changes lets consider the reason we are all so quick to call for change is that this game was UGLY.
Hey last year Texas Tech was UGLY. But look what happened against A&M. I will agree I would like to see more of either Lamur or Klein. However, I believe Snyder has his reasons for not starting those guys. Coffman’s under throwing of wide open receivers is really starting to get annoying. As a Cats fan I do not expect perfection but this is getting ridiculous. So let’s sit back and watch what Snyder will due this Thursday against KU. A similar loss to the one we witnessed this week would then be worth the second guessing that is going on all around this site. As this would establish a clear pattern. Notice also that I have refrained from mentioning the defense in this post as that is clearly another story.
by Catbacker98 on Oct 10, 2010 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions
Time to move on after a brutal loss...
I know its tough after a blowout loss in a game that had been hyped-up so much, but things need to be kept in perspective. From 1993 through 1997, KSU had some really good teams with athletic, fast defenses that got steam-rolled by Nebraska. Think the 1997 team, whose only loss was a slaughter at the hands of NU. Can’t let one loss beat you two weeks in a row or ruin your season.
Point is, starting with the upcoming game against Kansas our players will feel like they are playing downhill (which is, sadly, what Nebraska’s felt like last night). I’m not saying we have 4 wins left – I think 6-7 wins is the most we can ask for – just that the sky is not falling.
We knew coming in that our linebackers are slow and lack athleticism (Hrebec). We knew our D-line – Brandon Harold excepted – is a weakness. What was surprising, however, was the sloppiness of the secondary, which was out of position, incapable of breaking down to make a tackle, and took horrid pursuit angles all night. As one earlier poster mentioned, Martinez was never touched on any of those long runs. To point at just one player, I have to say I’m surprised by Tysan Hartman’s regression this year. Bad angles and blown coverage all over the place.
Unless we start putting in lighter, quicker defensive players for games up ahead (versus Mizzou, Texas, Okie State) – guys like Tre Walker, for instance – what you see is what you get on D. Its bend-but-don’t break against lesser opponents, and simply “break” against weightier ones. As much as I miss Vic Koenning, I’m not sure his defensive genius makes a difference last night ‘cause he ain’t playing safety, linebacker or D-tackle. And though some of the athletic shortcomings will be solved when Arthur Jones becomes eligible, that is next year and does KSU no good right now.
As for the offense, whatever strengths Coffman has in managing a game are more than outweighed by his inability to take pressure off Daniel Thomas or produce big plays. Last night’s loss is definitely not on him, but as mentioned, at the very least we need a few packages with Harper or Sammuel Lamur at QB. I find it hard to believe Klein or Lamur would do a lot worse than Coffman and if nothing else they might be able to threaten a D with the deep ball.
Also, time to get more carries for William Powell. We need a change-of-pace and Powell provides that, and it would take pressure off DT from having to do it all himself.
Welcome to BOTC CT-K-Stater
I think Vic could have made a big difference. Yeah, he’s not on the field, but I think he’s more important because he could get Hartman, and Hrebec, and Lamur in the right places at the right time so no more of that crap like on Martinez’ first TD run where I think it was Hrebec simply followed Prizell Brown to the defense’s right, and Martinez ran right through where Hrebec started out! (It’s Arthur Brown there too buddy.)
“Last night’s loss is definitely not on him, but as mentioned, at the very least we need a few packages with Harper or Sammuel Lamur at QB. I find it hard to believe Klein or Lamur would do a lot worse than Coffman and if nothing else they might be able to threaten a D with the deep ball.
Also, time to get more carries for William Powell. We need a change-of-pace and Powell provides that, and it would take pressure off DT from having to do it all himself.” Now if only I had Coach Snyder’s email address.
I don't measure a man's success by how high he climbs but how high he bounces when he hits bottom. - Gen. George S. Patton
Thanks
Agreed, Vic is head-and-shoulders above Cosh as D-coordinator (something I really worried about heading into this season). But Hrebec, for all his toughness and hustle, is dead weight standing still. Funny, I was thinking the same thing on the same play you mentioned – the first Nebraska TD. Just watch how Hrebec was frozen in place, with cement blocks seemingly tied around his ankles. He’s no Jeff Kelly, but then, as you point out, he doesn’t have to be if he’s placed in the proper position.
Clearly Cosh was selling out against the run by bringing everyone up to the line, which is yet another reason for all the long, unbroken runs by Big Red last night. I just think without any push up front from the D-tackles combined with zero lateral quickness from Hrebec you are dealt with a lousy hand. I also thought the D showed little heart at times. Intensity seemed sporadic. Of course giving up long play after long play will do that to you…
It isn’t going to be pretty when OSU and their gunslinger Wheeden starts torquing up this D through the air, not unless Hartman rediscovers how to play deep coverage. Despite all the problems last night, we knew what our weaknesses were going in and it was the secondary that really disappointed me. They aren’t as slow and lacking in athleticism as they showed and will have to step up big-time going forward. This same group didn’t look that bad against a pretty athletic UCLA team.
Just a logistical note
When you’re replying to the last comment you see on the page, make sure you hit “reply” underneath that comment. If you don’t, it’s separated from the thread, as as soon as someone posts another reply to that thread. I made that mistake several times when I first started commenting here, so it’s not a huge deal, I just thought I’d let you know why this comment was separated from the one you were replying to above. Welcome to BOTC!
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 8, 2010 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Coach Vic
I got to watch some of Coach Vic’s newest handiwork for Illinois against the hometown Buckeyes last week. His undersized defense often had 3 or 4 guys hitting the ball carrier and played with intensity. Too bad the refs tried to even things out with 3rd down offsides calls or the game would have been more interesting. Defense should always show intensity. Even my non-football fan son (I know, how could that be?) noticed it seemed like our defense was merely jogging after the breakaway runners.
I wasn't going to post anything...
because it’s really none of my business and I’m sure I will be called a troll. However, just to get it out of my system, there is really nothing much positive that came from that game last night for KSU and what a huge, disappointing letdown that must have been for KSU coaches, players, and fans.
There are no 1, 2, or 3 different things that need worked on. It’s EVERYTING! KSU displayed a huge lack of speed, depth, talent, fatigue, and most of all; the adjustments made from the booth were some of the worst I’ve seen since the Bill Callahan era at NU.
Can K-State build from this and get better? Sure. Assuming K-State sticks with their traditional status quo and the way they do business in that program, will they ever become BSC competitive? Hell no.
KSU needs to completely rethink and reinvent their entire program and it starts at the top. Snyder is a good coach, but he is not what K-State needs.
That said, good luck with the rest of the season and I’m just as disappointed as any of you. With complete breakdowns similar to what happened last night, it only makes the conference look that much less competitive and hurts any team’s chances for a BCS title.
I was with you until
the nonsense about KSU not being “BCS competitive” if they keep doing things Coach Snyder’s way. These kind of clusterf- games happen from time to time. Coach Snyder just needs to take a long hard look at the reasons why it happened, and do whatever he can to fix those problems this year, and to address the speed issues through recruiting for next year.
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 8, 2010 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Perhaps...
but then he needs to realize that some of his “employees” need to go. And by “BCS” competitive, I mean BCS championship competitive. Not just against BCS schools, which they are competitive currently.
I agree with you on some of his coordinators need to go.
If they wouldn’t have a "decent’ recruiting class coming in, i’d be more gung-ho about it.
by WillieWannabe on Oct 8, 2010 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions
And what I meant
was that Coach Snyder’s way has had us BCS competitive as recently as 2003.
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 8, 2010 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions
And that was a long time ago
Do you remember the next two years? Those years were dreadful. I don’t know exactly why, but I pray that isn’t what I want from Snyder. I don’t know what he has to do to avoid a repeat, but those years scare me.
I don't measure a man's success by how high he climbs but how high he bounces when he hits bottom. - Gen. George S. Patton
I do remember,
and I have my theories as to why it happened. I’m currently rolling over some story ideas in my mind on that very topic. One thing I think might have happened, is that Coach let his legendary focus slip a bit, as he saw retirement coming quickly. I don’t think that will happen again. And, even if it does, as someone who has known the days of Futility U (even though I was just a kid), Coach Snyder could have as many 5-7 years as he wants, and he’d still be my football leader.
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 8, 2010 5:52 PM CDT up reply actions
My theory -
it was the fallout from the Roberson incident at the Fiesta Bowl. It broke the coach’s heart; the players stopped buying into his system, his values, “we are a family” – all of that. If the kids aren’t buying into the system, you have losing teams. I am sure we’ve all heard the rumors (and they need not be explored on internet boards), but there is so much more to that story in Phoenix … breaks my heart.
oh hail the Purple and White
Personally...
I think the pillaging of all of his good coordinators finally took its collective toll. Just review the coaching tree again if you need any reassurance.
by Catbacker98 on Oct 10, 2010 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions
I didn't learn anything last night but...
I did see what many of us suspected to be true get played out.
We have an average at best QB and backups who show some promise but not a quick solution.
We have a slow defense that is better than last year, but still not very good at stopping the run.
We have an incredible running back who needs support and blocking. When he gets it, we do very well, when he doesn’t we do very poorly.
Nebraska was a monster last night. Yes they will be a serious contender for the Big 12 title, but we pretty much figured that anyways. Some of their fans have been gracious and some of their fans have been pretty rude. All the same, I won’t miss them.
I am still hopeful for a good season and think we’ll finish up at least 7-5.
See, I don't even think the D is better than last year
Sure, they didn’t get sacks, and they were vulnerable through the air, but at least they were solid on the ground. This D may be better through the air but the run D is awful.
I don't measure a man's success by how high he climbs but how high he bounces when he hits bottom. - Gen. George S. Patton
Last year's "better" rushing D stats
could easily be due to how opponents could pass on it like a hot chain saw through soft butter. I’ll take this year’s D over last year’s any day. I do believe NU’s 2010 offense would have stomped last year’s D similarly…
'Fact. Bears eat beets. Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica.' --Jim Halpert
I was really hoping you guys could beat Nebraska
Good luck with the rest of your season. I think you’ll finish out quite well.
We were kinda hoping that too! :)
Anyways, good luck to you guys next weekend, and welcome to BOTC! Feel free to stick around for a little while! :)
Hey Scott:
Just a logistical note :
When you’re replying to the last comment you see on the page, make sure you hit "reply" underneath that comment. If you don’t, it’s separated from the thread, as as soon as someone posts another reply to that thread. I made that mistake several times when I first started commenting here, so it’s not a huge deal, I just thought I’d let you know why this comment was separated from the one you were replying to above. Welcome to BOTC!
Ha ha – couldn’t resist!
Surgeon General's Warning: K-State-Mizzou basketball may increase the risk of high blood pressure. Please consult your doctor prior to watching any of these games.
by mystman995 on Oct 8, 2010 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Good grief!
I’m STILL making that effing mistake! lol
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 8, 2010 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Anyway...
All semantics aside, it’s not like it’s the end of the world. See Nebraska 3 short years ago…No reason to believe K State can’t get their shit together, too.
I'm sorry
But that’s one of the stupider things I’ve seen on this board. I think if he can take a team that had been 0-26-1 in the 2 1/2 years before he got there and win a league title with them, and multiple division titles, I’m PRETTY sure he can turn a 6-6 team into a consistent contender, Herpie.
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 9, 2010 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions
lol
And how many years has he been given to instill some consistency in the program? Dude, facts are facts, the football program is the epitome of mediocre, any reasonable mind would think the culture of the coaching staff needs to change.
Perhaps you’re ok with mediocrity, though.
Okay, I'm done with you.
The program was in complete shambles when Prince was finally shown the door. It takes more than one recruiting class to fix that kind of crap. It seems to me now that you’re just trolling. If that’s your game, fine, but I’m done debating what’s not debatable. Coach Snyder is a legend, and what he did last year (bringing us to the cusp of a Big 12 North title) just furthers that legend.
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 9, 2010 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions
The line of succession would be important, though.
How many years does Snyder want to coach? Can he go into a recruit’s home this fall and say I’ll be your coach as a senior? PSU and FSU have both suffered to some degree from these types of questions.
Coach Snyder is 71, not 83.
And I think it was TB or BracketCat that said they could see him coaching 10 more years. I tend to think it will be more like 5 or 6, but either way, I think it will be long enough to get the program rolling again. And succession IS important. I like OU’s D-Coordinator, Brent Venables a lot as a coach. I don’t like that he went Judas on us to OU with Stooper, but what can you do? He’s a really good coach, with a lot of experience (12 years) for still being quite young (39). Who knows if he’ll still be out there when Coach steps down, though.
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 9, 2010 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Let's pretend that I was the father of a H.S. recruit
and KSU was in my living room. Snyder’s future would be one of the first questions I ask. That’s my kid, and I want the best for him. I would have done the same with Bowden or Paterno or Osborne before he stepped aside. It’s something I ask today when interviewing for jobs . . . what is the stability of the management structure? How have previous transitions been handled?
I think 5-6 years is optimistically realistic. More than that? I’m not so sure.
Forgive me for this next question… it shows my lack of knowledge of your current coaching staff, and I know you’ve had some turnover. But If Snyder were to have health problems next week, who is the #1 assistant that would step in to lead the team? And do people view that assistant as a potential successor?
If not, as the father of an imaginary recruit I would think long and hard about my other options.
Good question!
Right now, we have co-OCs in Dimel and Miller, while Cosh is our DC. From their titles (Cosh has “Assistant Head Coach” attached to his) I assume that in the “health problems” scenario, Cosh takes over until Coach Snyder comes back. Personally, I don’t know how popular Cosh is with FANS, but I think he has the respect of the TEAM, and that’s what matters. I honestly don’t KNOW what their coaching transition plan is, though, since I don’t think Coach plans on leaving before maybe 2015 or 2016. I’m hoping that, by that time, one of the younger offensive and/or defensive coaches will have been promoted, and developed to such a point as to be a truly viable candidate for the job. Otherwise, I think we go back to some of those REALLY young staffs of the late 90s that will (at that point) be mature coaches somewhere, and find our successor there. However we do it, I think that the next HC needs to be someone with KSU ties of SOME sort.
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 9, 2010 5:29 PM CDT up reply actions
And who else is off the Snyder coaching tree?
NU has a couple of guys with ties to KSU. Eckler, definitely, and I think Tim Beck. You’ve already mentioned Venables from OU.
Former SMU coach Bennett? Bielema if he becomes available? Fabris at Georgia? What about controversial guys like Mangino or Leavitt?
Gary Patterson still strikes me as the home run.
He has several
I like Ekeler a lot, but Venables would probably be my choice right now. I have no use for Mangino, and a guy like Leavitt is damaged goods. I like Bennett a lot, but I think his SMU stint did in any chance he had of ever coaching the Cats. Patterson is an alum, and a great coach (I actually played football against his nephews out in SW Kansas), but he’s got a pretty good thing rolling at TCU. Not sure he would leave. Like I point out below, I’d like to see one of our young coaches develop and step up in the next several years. But, to me, Venables (if he’s there) would be a great choice.
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 9, 2010 5:58 PM CDT up reply actions
On Patterson...
If he keeps putting together good teams that aren’t allowed to play in a Championship game and not just a BCS bowl may well want to come to KSU a Big 12 school in an AQ conference.
by Catbacker98 on Oct 10, 2010 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions
I think
if Coach P wanted to come back to the alma mater, he would have done so the first time Coach Snyder retired.
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 10, 2010 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Disagree.
Normally something would have been presented to him privately through back channels. In his case the media jumped so quickly into the fray that he was put on the spot. TCU was starting to have some serious success and thus he didn’t want stir the pot. There is nothing to suggest that he wouldn’t have at least considered the position had more discretion been used in officially contacting him (provided of course that KSU even reached out in the first place).
by Catbacker98 on Oct 10, 2010 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions
+1
I think a good example is Roy Williams at KU. He turned down UNC once before a few years later giving in to his alma mater.
Obviously its not a perfect comparison, but I think Patterson liked where he was, and is, with TCU. But who knows in 5-6 years? Things change, and sometimes, people just want a change of scenery.
by ChrisP Wildcat on Oct 14, 2010 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions
It certainly COULD happen,
and Coach P needs to be on the short list here in a few years, but I’m just saying I don’t think he’s leaving TCU.
"Everybody gets one chance to do something great. Most people never take the chance, either 'cause they're too scared, or because they don't recognize it when it spits on their shoes. This is your big chance, and you shouldn't let it go by..."
www.bringonthecats.com
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 14, 2010 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Our young coaches
Right now, we have three coaches on our staff that could legitimately be called “young”, and who — if Coach DOES stay another 5 or 6 years (or more) — might be ready for the big chair when he retires again.
Michael Smith, 40, is in his 14th year at KSU, and has roots that go all the way to his playing days in the late 80s/early 90s. He is currently the WRs Coach.
Joe Bob Clements, 34, is in his 9th year at KSU, and — like Smith — has roots that go all the way back to his playing days in the mid-90s. He is currently coaches the defensive ends.
Ricky Rahne, 30, is in his 5th year at KSU, and coaches the TEs. He is a Cornell graduate (’02).
Those are the guys CURRENTLY ON STAFF that I’m hoping develop under Coach Snyder in the next 5 years or so, into legitimate head coaching material.
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 9, 2010 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions
And what would your plan be if Snyder
decides to leave after 2011?
Interesting thought experiment
And, though I don’t think it’s happening, I’ll play along. The short list, for me, would include Gary Patterson, Brent Venables, and (gulp!) even someone like Carl Pelini. He worked as a grad assistant for Coach Snyder back in the early 90s. Of his current staff, I’m sure (given the ‘11 scenario you posit) that they would interview Dimel (co-OC) and Coach (DC). I’m sure there are a few names I’m leaving off right now.
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 9, 2010 6:17 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm sure I knew that Carl Pelini worked under Snyder . . .
. . . but I’ve long since forgotten it.
I think you are pretty much right on your short list process. Go for a home run first, an experienced, big-name coordinator second, then look internally and elsewhere.
Oh, I think that
They would interview Dimel and Cosh (I accidentally put “Coach” above), if only to pacify current players who might at least want their favorite coaches to have a chance at it. I’d also be interested in finding someone with some deep roots in the Texas talent base.
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 9, 2010 6:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Fascinating
Thanks Chris and Scott, that was an interesting read. I really wish Leavitt hadn’t left USF in such a bad way because I was hoping (against reason really) that he would be the next KSU coach. Ah well. Patterson would be my favorite, easily, but I don’t think he’ll do it. Venables? Yeah, I could see it.
I don't measure a man's success by how high he climbs but how high he bounces when he hits bottom. - Gen. George S. Patton
Dimel
Wouldn’t necessarily be a horrible choice, either. He had reasonable success as the head man at Wyoming, then walked into a disaster area in Houston and couldn’t get them off the mat (although he recruited well). And, of course, he’s really purple through and through. Coach obviously loves the guy; he kept him on staff when he originally took the job (Dimel had been hired by Parrish), brought him back as an assistant after the Houston job blew up, and then brought him back again when he unretired.
There’s guys I’d look at before Dimel, and they’ve all been mentioned, but I wouldn’t freak out if he took over either.
I am now channeling Will McDonald's optimism.
True, but
I think that Houston debacle left too dark a blemish on his resume, similar to Bennett at SMU, and Leavitt at USF. I just can’t see KSU bringing him in to replace a living legend.
"Everybody gets one chance to do something great. Most people never take the chance, either 'cause they're too scared, or because they don't recognize it when it spits on their shoes. This is your big chance, and you shouldn't let it go by..."
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 11, 2010 7:43 PM CDT up reply actions
They won
with his first batch of upperclassmen as soon as he left. Just sayin’.
I am now channeling Will McDonald's optimism.
I don't disagree,
I’m just talking about the PERCEPTION of things. You get a guy like Venables, and all the big donors and such are breathing a sigh of relief. You go with Dimel, and they’re getting nervous.
"Everybody gets one chance to do something great. Most people never take the chance, either 'cause they're too scared, or because they don't recognize it when it spits on their shoes. This is your big chance, and you shouldn't let it go by..."
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 11, 2010 8:09 PM CDT up reply actions
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