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Around SBN: How The Kings Beat The Coyotes: Lather, Rinse, Repeat

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Let the MSM Cat hate begin. It opens with ESPN's John Gasaway taking potshots.

I won't link the actual story, for two reasons: (1) It's mostly behind a paywall, at ESPN.com; and (2) It's an article calling the Cats vastly overrated already, with not one game played. In other words, it's not worth reading.

This is why I hate preseason polls, in all sports: it gives blowhards a chance to be blowhards.

over 1 year ago Herkimer_1891_03-11-2011_e71kdf6a K. Scott Bailey 54 comments 0 recs  | 

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Comments

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Settle down KSB...

It’s not like he totally trashed KSU, just from the statistical side he didn’t think they warranted a #3. He still thought KSU would be very good and pretty much said time will tell. Plus he was never a fan of Frank’s style all of last year. He was mystified by it(which i thought was awesome btw.)

I agree on preseason polls. But it is much better when we are on this side of it.

by WillieWannabe on Oct 28, 2010 5:26 PM CDT reply actions  

Did you notice,

where he took a potshot at the Cats from the Big 12-perspective? The idiocy about the Cats MAYBE being #3 in the conference? I’ve never followed Gasaway’s stuff, so you know his style better than I do. But, if THIS is his style, to call a program overrated because you don’t like the coach, then count me out as a potential fan of Mr. Gasaway.

"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp

by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 28, 2010 5:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well. I could see KSU being behind KU and Baylor and possibly Mizzou.

It will be a fight all year, but it’s not unreasonable. You just never know how things will turn out. And to be clear, i’ve never seen him write that he doesn’t like Frank, just the style of play. He gets caught up on the number of free throws in our games, for whatever reason.

Plus, look on the brightside, some good bulletin board material.

by WillieWannabe on Oct 28, 2010 6:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

I guess so.

It just seems like no more than a cheap shot, given that the coaches picked us #1 in the conference.

"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp

by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 28, 2010 6:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

But he said

That we were maybe third in the Big XII, at best.

Also said Baylor was a better team than we were last year, despite the fact that we beat Baylor, twice. they went one round farther than us in the tournament. I think we get the edge in that department, and obviously I am a homer, but the point is that we are at least good enough to be considered the top team in the Big XII.

I’m not sure why he’s hatin’ but the fact is we return the most out of the best two teams from last year (in the Big XII). His article was supposed to be about teams being severely overrated. Maybe we aren’t Top 3, but there are certainly other teams that were much more overrated than we were.

And frankly, I don’t know where he thinks this over-rated thing comes from. Teams usually get over-rated because they have a name or something. What does K-State have that would make people want to rank us higher than we deserve?

Forward into Battle

by ChrisP Wildcat on Oct 28, 2010 7:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Baylor didn't go further...

…in the tournament. They lost in the Elite 8, just like K-State. To say Baylor, 0-2 and with the exact same tournament result as K-State, was a better team is counterfactual.

We'll carry the banner high!
Bring On The Cats

by TB on Oct 28, 2010 8:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh, yeah, me stupid some times

It just reinforces my point.

Forward into Battle

by ChrisP Wildcat on Oct 28, 2010 9:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think with Gasaway it's personal. Like WW points out above, he doesn't like how Frank plays.

I don’t think it would matter if Kentucky’s starting 5 transferred to KSU with immediate eligibility, he would say the Cats are overrated.

"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp

by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 28, 2010 7:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Our starting 5 for this year

is better than Ky’s starting five this year.

oh hail the Purple and White

by Furnace76 on Oct 28, 2010 7:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

My point is,

that team would be the best in the country by far, but it wouldn’t matter.

"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp

by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 28, 2010 7:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Reply fail:

My comment below was meant to go here.

My new blog: Those Other Guys. Critiques welcome.

by jonfmorse on Oct 28, 2010 8:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

So I read the article as far as possible with out actually paying for it and...

those are some of the dumbest arguments that could be made. So a team can not win with its defense? It has to shoot lights out all of the time? And apparently he thinks we are not even good enough to finish 3rd in our conference let alone the nation. Gas-away how apropos.

by Catbacker98 on Oct 28, 2010 7:25 PM CDT reply actions  

Jack Harry

is KC’s version of Beano Cook (old crazy man who keeps getting to talk)

www.big12hoops.com
Follow me on Twitter:
http://twitter.com/Joe_Loyd

by Joe Loyd on Oct 28, 2010 8:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yawn!

K-State fans like HCFM. HCFM wins games. HCFM expects his players to develop in basketball and life. So a columnist doesn’t like HCFM’s style of basketball, yawn.
Who cares about a columnist writing for a reaction, wake me up when the games start.

The time for calm and rational discourse is past, now is the time for senseless bickering -Anonymous the Younger

by Anon_the_younger on Oct 28, 2010 8:12 PM CDT reply actions  

The thing you're not understanding

Is that it’s not “ESPN.com’s John Gasaway”. It’s “Basketball Prospectus’s John Gasaway” writing a guest article for ESPN.com.

Basketball Prospectus is a number-crunching operation. (That is why Gasaway gets caught up in the number of free throws, just like Baseball Prospectus gets caught up in the number of times a batter walks. They’re both statistically significant indicators with a high correlation to winning.) Everything Gasaway writes is directly related to what the numbers are telling him, period, and getting spun up about it is about as pointless as getting mad at your copy of Quicken for telling you that you can’t afford to pay your bills this month.

My new blog: Those Other Guys. Critiques welcome.

by jonfmorse on Oct 28, 2010 8:30 PM CDT reply actions  

umm...

When I googled basketball prospectus, the first link was to a site with an emphasis on professional basketball.

Do professional basketball indicators transfer to the college game? IMHO pro and college are 2 different games played almost the same.

The time for calm and rational discourse is past, now is the time for senseless bickering -Anonymous the Younger

by Anon_the_younger on Oct 29, 2010 8:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

Basketball Prospectus also covers college basketball.

In fact, most of the basis for their statistical theory came from analyzing the college game. Ken Pomeroy is one of the guys who founded the basketball offshoot of the original baseball site, even.

The reason it appears to have an emphasis on pro basketball is that the pro basketball season has already started, and thus there is current action to discuss. There is as yet nothing whatsoever for them to discuss regarding college basketball this season, as there are no numbers for them to crunch yet.

My new blog: Those Other Guys. Critiques welcome.

by jonfmorse on Oct 29, 2010 4:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

I realize he's a BP guy.

But the column I was criticizing was posted on ESPN, so that’s how I chose to label him. That said, I love running the numbers as much as anyone. But you must also “run the numbers” through a filter of common sense or “the eyeball test.” He doesn’t seem to be willing or able to do that, given that KSU beat Baylor twice, advanced further than them in the Big 12 tournament, and was just overall better than them last year, no matter what the numbers say. That’s why I think there HAS to be a common-sense filter after the numbers are crunched.

"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp

by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 29, 2010 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Again, this is the problem:
But you must also "run the numbers" through a filter of common sense or "the eyeball test."

Prospectus Ventures, LLC operates on the very principle of basically ignoring the “eyeball test”. It’s their entire modus operandi, and they believe in the principle of “anything you can’t prove in the numbers most likely does not exist”. You can argue that this makes their analysis flawed, but you can’t complain about them disrespecting your team… because you can’t disrespect a line on a spreadsheet.

And while I agree with you that K-State was better than Baylor last year, the fact that we beat them twice and got further in the Big 12 tournament does not prove that we had a better basketball team when you get down to the cold hard nuts and bolts of it. It may or may not merely be a function of small sample size. I mean, does anyone really think that James Madison is a “better football team” than Virginia Tech, in the sense that one should expect James Madison to beat Virginia Tech more often than not? Hell, no.

My new blog: Those Other Guys. Critiques welcome.

by jonfmorse on Oct 29, 2010 4:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

But wins and losses ARE a number.

And if they ignore what happened in the two times the teams actually met on the court, then their numerical analysis IS meaningless. Common mathematical sense would even say that if Equation A says Team X is better than Team Y, yet Team X loses to Team Y not once, but twice, then Equation A is faulty in some way. There is something it’s not accounting for.

"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp

by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 29, 2010 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

Small sample size.

Standard deviation.

Basic statistical regimen.

My new blog: Those Other Guys. Critiques welcome.

by jonfmorse on Oct 29, 2010 5:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

So the actual results of the numbers (wins and losses) can simply be explained away

using standard deviation? That doesn’t make any basketball sense at all. And I’d be curious to know if Basketball Prospectus measures such crucial defensive stats as deflections? Also, I’ve created a stat I call “productive deflections”, which are basically deflections that lead to steals, stall a fast break, or prevent an entry pass to a posted big man. I guess what I’m saying is that numbers can tell a lot of stories. But any numbers that tell a story that belies what happens on the actual basketball court aren’t to be completely trusted. And any numbers that say that Baylor was a better team than KSU last year aren’t to be trusted at all.

"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp

by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 29, 2010 7:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Texas Rangers

who you might recognize from their hit Broadway drama “2010 American League Champions”, lost six out of ten games to the hapless Baltimore Orioles.

Your entire argument at this point is now “Baltimore is a better team than Texas.”

Look, when you have just one, or two, or three, or even ten games to look at, the best team doesn’t always win them. Taking a random, non-existent sport into consideration here: If Team A scores 1000 points and only gives up 700, while Team B only scores 950 points and gives up 800… I’m sorry, the fact that Team B happened to win more games than Team A (including, perhaps, beating Team A three times in three contests) is completely irrelevant to the question of which team is more efficient (Team A is, period) — and even more importantly, it’s absolutely, totally, indisputably irrelevant to the question of which team is more likely to win more games in a different sample (Team A is, period).

(It may be relevant as to which team would win more games if they only played one another, as different teams match up with one another differently. But that’s not really even germane to the issue at hand here.)

My new blog: Those Other Guys. Critiques welcome.

by jonfmorse on Oct 29, 2010 8:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

But, it IS germane to the issue.

You can NOT determine who is a better team without considering who actually wins when they play games against each other. When all else is basically equal (Won/Loss record, Conference Won/Loss record, etc.) it boils down to who wins the damn game, when they play. And I note with interest that you didn’t address whether or not Basketball Prospectus measures important defensive stats like deflections, that don’t show up in box scores. I’ll take that to mean that they don’t, and thus that their methodology is at least a BIT flawed.

"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp

by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 29, 2010 9:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is like trying to explain hamburger to a giraffe.

Here, I’ll throw you a better baseball example to drill this point home. It’s a better example because it involves a team that didn’t beat their opponent even once this season.

Baltimore (66-96) played Los Angeles (80-82) six times this year.

Baltimore won all six games.

Who’s the better team, Scott? Unless your answer is “Baltimore”, then it does not matter one tiny infinitesimal speck of a bit that we beat Baylor three times last year — and the fact that “all else is basically equal” is what makes this inescapably true.

All else is basically equal. If you flip a coin three times and get heads each time, do you decide the coin must be weighted?

(I feel compelled to remind everyone at this point that, as I have already said, I do believe we were and are better than Baylor. My point is simply that a writer for a statistically-centered basketball site stating the opposite point of view is, to be completely blunt about it, no justification for acting like we’ve been handed the gravest of insults and getting all butthurt about it.)

As to your last two sentences, I am not even going to dignify your “you didn’t respond to this part so I must be right” nonsense with a response, other than to call you out on it. I don’t play with strawmen.

My new blog: Those Other Guys. Critiques welcome.

by jonfmorse on Oct 30, 2010 1:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think I can help...

if you continue to use the “we beat them twice!” argument then you have zero claims to being even close to as good as Kansas last year.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Oct 30, 2010 1:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

Who is Tim Lacy?

"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp

by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 30, 2010 1:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

We WEREN'T as good as Kansas last year.

It wasn’t even really all that close. And it doesn’t make me a bad Wildcat to say that.

"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp

by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 30, 2010 1:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ok, just so you know

more or less the stats Gasaway uses say for last season:
KU: 2
Baylor: 6
KSU: 7

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Oct 30, 2010 1:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

And to me, that's just weird.

I have no problem being ranked 5 spots (or even 10) behind KU from last year. But Baylor, I just don’t get. PPP just isn’t that powerful of an indicator, as I see it anyways.

"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp

by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 30, 2010 1:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

Really?

Baylor scored 4 points more per 100 and gave up 3 more per 100. Overall that’s 1 point more per 100 possessions in Baylor’s favor. I’m failing to see how that’s not the most important part of evaluating these teams.

In the end, K-State won both games. Maybe it was Frank Martin’s aura (very possible when coaching against Drew) that pushed you guys over the top in your head to head.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Oct 30, 2010 2:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

Many many things go into winning basketball.

Both from a statistical perspective AND from an actual perspective. PPP is a highly overrated stat, that can be skewed by things like an aberrational 25- or 30-point loss (or win), combined with other close wins. Tell me, which of the following opening 8 games of conference play would you rather have?

Team A = +1, +3, +5, +4, -21, +6, -3, +4 = -5 (6-2 record)
Team B = +5, -3, +11, -5, -2, +27, -4, -6 = +23 (3-5 record)

Assuming this is a straight round-robin in a 9-team league, whose PPP would most likely be higher? Yet which team is really the “better” team?

"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp

by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 30, 2010 2:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

The great thing about studying stats is that I don't have to deal with

hypotheticals that contain imagined outliers. I’m not saying outliers don’t happen but they did last year. When they do, they’re accounted for in the stats.

And honestly, I don’t get how that has anything to do with what we’re talking about. We’re not discussing scoring margins. When PPP is mentioned, it’s talking about an average point per possession. That includes many factors that you see in a basketball game.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Oct 30, 2010 2:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

PPP

is talked about as a differential, which is why I posed the hypothetical that I did. It’s a rough hypothetical, but such “outliers” aren’t terribly uncommon in basketball. And relying on PPP to differentiate between teams is, well, not a great way to use it. I’ve always seen it more as a measure of a team’s offensive or defensive efficiency, than as a way of comparing one team to another. I just don’t think it works all that well when used in comparisons.

"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp

by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 30, 2010 2:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

Efficiency Margin is the differential.

Difference between OPPP and DPPP.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Oct 30, 2010 2:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

That's what I was saying.

I normally hear people talking about PPP as the difference between Offensive and Defensive, when they’re trying to use it to compare two teams to each other. And that’s when I don’t think it’s terribly effective.

"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp

by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 30, 2010 2:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

As Jonfmorse said before:
It’s their entire modus operandi, and they believe in the principle of "anything you can’t prove in the numbers most likely does not exist". You can argue that this makes their analysis flawed,

Duke was their #1 based on Eff. Margin for the majority of the year and they were laughed at.

What do you have to show that it’s not terribly effective? They hit the Big 12 right with EM…I mean, other than your gut that K-State was better than the team ranked immediately ahead of them?

Is it perfect? No, of course not. If a perfect number is out there, we wouldn’t know it because Lew Perkins would have bought that shit years ago.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Oct 30, 2010 2:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not going on my gut.

I’m going on the fact that KU was 3-0 against K-State, and K-State was 2-0 against Baylor. I’m also going on the fact that there are important defensive metrics that PPP simply doesn’t account for. But mostly, I’m going on what I saw on the actual basketball court.

"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp

by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 30, 2010 3:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

Uh

differential

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Oct 30, 2010 2:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

Why won't you respond to that point, Jon?

My whole point revolves around the fact that I don’t believe that the statistics that Basketball Prospectus is using are comprehensive enough, and therefore aren’t very useful. Asking you for clarification on whether or not they measure an extremely important defensive metric isn’t setting up a straw man, Jon. And I have no idea why you continue to refuse to answer such a simple question.

Also, you claim you think that KSU was better than Baylor last year. Why? If Basketball Prospectus has comprehensive sabermetric-type stats that prove otherwise, why would you think that?

Lastly, I’d ask that you go a bit easy on the whole “explaining hamburger to a giraffe” type metaphors. A bit condescending, no? I love statistics, and used them almost religiously as a coach. Assuming that my disagreement with you about BP’s reliability is because I have some kind of deficiency that makes it like explaining hamburger to a giraffe is more than a bit of a stretch.

One thing I figured out very quickly when using statistics to evaluate my teams and players was that statistics are only as valuable as they get more comprehensive. As such, I tried to figure out ways to measure defensive ability that went beyond simply gauging steals, fouls, and blocked shots. I won’t get into all of the different things I tried to measure for our teams, but suffice to say, I’m no hamburger-eating giraffe when it comes to statistics.

"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp

by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 30, 2010 1:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

Because, Scott

You are being passive-aggressive. You are repeatedly hand-waving when I logically shoot you down, yet at the same time you’re all but demanding that I respond to your points. I refuse to participate in a discussion of that nature. Rest assured, I have a response to your question; I’m just refusing to provide it on principle at this point.

I will, however, point out two problems with this comment:

1) I believe KSU was better because, and I know this may be hard to comprehend, I do not believe that the stats prove anything at all. This is in contrast to your assertion, which is that beating Baylor twice proves something at all. Head-to-head wins are a point to consider. The statistics are points to consider. Nothing “proves” anything, unless the evidence is overwhelming. Since there’s really not much to separate Baylor and K-State, there’s nothing overwhelming to point to.

2) You have completely misunderstood the hamburger/giraffe analogy. Giraffes don’t eat hamburger; while it may indeed be an “inability”, the point was more that it’s simply not in their nature, and no matter how hard you try to tell a giraffe how tasty and satisfying a juicy, greasy burger is… he’s just going to shake his head and keep plucking leaves off the nearby tree.

My new blog: Those Other Guys. Critiques welcome.

by jonfmorse on Oct 30, 2010 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

Wow. Now I'm being passive-aggressive?

I asked you a question about whether or not they measure what I consider a very important stat. I have no clue in what psychological universe that request can be taken as passive-aggressive. It’s pretty straightforward: I don’t think they do, but I’m not sure, so I’m asking.

As for your comment that “head-to-head wins are a point to consider”, I’d say that ultimately, they’re the only point that matters. We can talk about offensive efficiency and defensive efficiency using PPP until we’re blue in the face. What matters is who wins when the teams play. And head-to-head, we were 2 points better at their place, and 7 points better on a neutral court. One thing I certainly WILL concede is that it’s more DIFFICULT to compare teams when you don’t have a home-and-home round-robin each year. That’s why I’m really looking forward to the 2011-12 basketball season. Once you’ve played h-and-h’s, it’s much easier to truly tell the cream of the crop.

"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp

by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 30, 2010 7:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

You asked me a question

and then when I didn’t answer it, you were a jackass about it.

Before I proceed, let me make one thing perfectly clear: you are stating, unequivocally, that the Baltimore Orioles are a better team than the Los Angeles Angels. There is nothing whatsoever you can say at this point to countermand that; you claim that head-to-head is the only thing that matters. To hell with the other 156 games each team played which by and large prove beyond any reasonable doubt that Baltimore is the far inferior team. You probably also think the 1960 Pittsburgh Pirates were a better team than the 1960 New York Yankees just because the Pirates won the World Series that year despite being outscored by about a billion runs.

You have continually refused to address this point — the complete stupidity of depending on head-to-head competition when teams don’t play one another head-to-head enough to matter — while at the same time having the unmitigated gall to give me shit for not having answered your question? Really?

I didn’t bother to answer it the first time because, frankly, it was preposterous and you should know it. But what the hell, I’ll humor you now.

No, they do not use deflections in their statistical analysis. They CAN’T. It is impossible to create a valid statistical model of a sport, any sport, using as any part of its base an event which is not universally tracked in every game. (Bear in mind, “points” and “blocked shots” and “steals” are not “statistics”. They are “events”. “Statistics” are what you get when you perform mathematical operations on the numbers which represent those events, for example “points per game” and “turnover margin” and “defensive efficiency”.)

Until deflections become part of the standard box score (or until someone has access to every game played on video tape in order to analyze them all and count deflections, like John Dewan is doing with baseball defense), then they can’t be factored into a sport-wide calculation of anything. Not by BP, not by you, not by anyone. In fact, even attempting to include them right now would totally invalidate the output, rather than making it better and more informative.

Don’t mistake me, I think they should be, and in that sense your concern is not irrelevant. And once they are counted as an event, then they could be part of any grand unifying theory, although it’s worth noting that efficiency margin all by itself has an outrageously high correlation with winning; any more detailed calculation would have to improve on that correlation to be worthwhile.

But for now they’re not, and trying to incorporate them inherently creates flawed output.

There. Question answered; a question you shouldn’t even have felt the need to ask if you’d thought about it for a tenth of a second.

My new blog: Those Other Guys. Critiques welcome.

by jonfmorse on Oct 30, 2010 10:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

I've said before,

that all other things being relatively equal, that what matters is head-to-head. Talk about straw men. I think you know that I’m not saying that the Orioles are better than the Angels.

It seems like one basic departure between us is that you think that I don’t find BP’s analyses useful at all. I actually really like offensive and defensive PPP, as a way of seeing how efficient an individual team is on both ends. What I don’t like is trying to use those numbers to rank teams. It’s not what they’re good for, and it’s not what they are intended to do.

As for the question about the comprehensiveness of PPP, particularly on the defensive side of it, I think that the deflections stat is kept by every team, though it’s not released like the normal stats. I have no idea why it’s not. That type of stat, along with other, supposedly "non-box score" stats like charges taken, turnovers forced (as opposed to just turnovers, which are often unforced) and things like that, make it hard for me to put much stock in PPP as a measure of anything other than an individual team’s ability to score points, as well as the rate at which that team’s opponents score points. I just can’t view the OPPP and DPPP ratings as a "grade" of an entire team as BP seems to want to do.

"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp

by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 31, 2010 1:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

Why not?

What is the end result of a deflection? Of a charge taken? A turnover forced?

They all result in a possession with no points scored. They all automatically improve your team’s DPPP; they all automatically decrease the other team’s OPPP. Preventing these things from happening when you have the ball helps to improve your OPPP and decrease the opponent’s DPPP. (Only helps to, obviously, because preventing these things doesn’t necessarily result in you scoring points.)

So in this respect, I find your position that you question the comprehensiveness of PPP “particularly on the defensive side of it” very, very curions… because on the defensive side of it, it automatically credits the team with everything you’re talking about. (There is the question of deflections out of bounds, but there’s no change of possession involved there, and the only real impact is on pace.)

As to PPP overall, since the only relevant factors in a basketball game are “scoring points” and “preventing your opponent from scoring points”, I guess I don’t understand how you can dismiss PPP because… that’s all it really measures?

Now, I’ll happily concede to you that measuring these things is perfectly wonderful when judging your players. But a team is not the sum of its parts. It’s a much more complicated operation than that.

My new blog: Those Other Guys. Critiques welcome.

by jonfmorse on Oct 31, 2010 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

My main problem isn't with PPP, but

with using it to compare teams to each other. I just don’t think it’s all that useful in that regard.

"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp

by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 31, 2010 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

But that's all it IS good for.

I think, and I do NOT in any way mean this to be insulting or to impugn your intelligence, that you just don’t understand it fully. And I’m the wrong person to try and explain it, because my understanding of it (as with most things in my world) is intuitive.

All I can offer is that a team which is better at scoring points and better at preventing them from being scored is a better team overall, and given a large enough sample will almost universally win more games overall given relatively similar schedules.

I think where the problem rests is much more basic, and I actually already alluded to it way back up toward the top of this thread:

A “better” team can (and does) consistently lose to a “lesser” team simply because their teams match up oddly. We matched up well with Baylor, and were able to overcome their overall advantage as a result.

But that’s neither here nor there, because as I have stated before I think we are a better team than Baylor. My problem with this thread back at the start was the general implication that since we beat them, we’re better period end of story, and that’s simply not supportable.

My new blog: Those Other Guys. Critiques welcome.

by jonfmorse on Oct 31, 2010 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

Undenting this...

And MY problem is that all other things being equal (overall record and conference record), head-to-head is a legitimate distinguishing factor, as far as team quality goes. Especially given that we didn’t even get a chance to play them in Bramlage. Simply looking at the point differentials in the two games we played them, the arc of it looks similar to our matchups with KU.

KSU | Away | Neutral | Home
vs.
BAY | +2 | +7 | —

KU | Away | Neutral | Home
vs.
KSU | +2 | +8 | +17

Not saying that we would have beaten Baylor by 17 in Bramlage, just noting the similarities between the Neutral/Away matchups from last year.

"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp

by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 31, 2010 2:20 PM CDT reply actions  

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