NOMINATION THREAD: Who is K-State's All-Time Greatest Running Back?
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 25, 2010 12:29 PM CDT
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PrintI'm getting ready to create a poll for BOTCers to decide who we think is K-State's all-time greatest running back. There are a few names I could throw out there, but I know I will forget someone. That's why I've decided to make a nomination thread before creating the actual poll. From the comments here (and my own ideas as well) I will cull a list of between 4 and 10 running backs for us to vote on. The number will depend largely on the cases that can be made for each as the "greatest."
One thing I should note is that "greatest" does not always mean "most yardage." Does there need to be a baseline of production? Sure. But, for example, in a discussion of the greatest NFL running backs of all-time, I think that a great case can be made for Jim Brown over Walter Payton, and for Payton over Barry Sanders, and for Sanders over Emmitt Smith. Yet Smith's raw numbers say he is the greatest. So, with those caveats, fire away! I'm looking forward to seeing the nominations, and the rationales behind them, in the comments.
I will get the ball rolling with one, not-as-obvious nomination:
Nomination: Eric Gallon (1989-92)
Rationale: One of only 7 (I think) RBs in KSU history to surpass 1,000 yards in a season, Gallon played just before the "Decade of Dominance", which is why he is often overlooked. Running behind far less athletic and powerful lines, Gallon was a major contributor to the first phases of the turnaround initiated by Coach Snyder.
Final note: Remember to actually make a case for your nominee, instead of just tossing a name out there. I think this should be a lot of fun!
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First, with Darren Sproles (so I win!)
He has the most yards rushing and all-purpose yards ever, a fantastic ypc average, and was dangerous on special teams as well. No, I don’t credit him with the 2003 conference title, but his performance in that game was utterly astounding. What he did against a defense that had to know what was going to happen (he set a school record with 273 (!!) yards against MU the week before) was amazing. I don’t think anyone will ever touch his career numbers, unless they start for all four years.
2004 was a good season for him, but nothing special, and it was because of the collapse of the offensive line and QB. He couldn’t do it by himself, although he and Snyder tried it.
He (and Newman) are/were everything right with KSU sports. Kids with talent from high school that with the right coaching and a fantastic work-ethic turn into all-timers.
Fire Chris Cosh!
by Sean T on Oct 25, 2010 12:59 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I don't think pro careers should have any impact when you look a college career
But you have to credit “little tank” with having a terrific (and profitable) NFL career as a weapon. No, he doesn’t have the sheer yards of my cousin (LT) who he backed up for years, but remember, he beat Indy in the playoffs with his returns.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/7306
Can you tell he’s my all time favorite KSU athlete?
Fire Chris Cosh!
Umm... yeah? :)
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 25, 2010 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions
+1
He’s also my favorite all-time athlete. Just a great person, works hard and was mostly rewarded for that despite not fitting the pro-typical mold for a successful NFL running back.
My prediction is he wins in a landslide (much like Bishop), but then again, I know next to nothing about KSU running backs, so I’ll have to wait and see all the arguments.
by ChrisP Wildcat on Oct 25, 2010 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions
I think in this case, pro-typical works just fine
and you’ve also invented a new term! Copyright it before Mel Kiper’s hair steals it.
Fire Chris Cosh!
He may win big,
but — as much love as I have for Sproles — I’m not voting for him. Give me Eric Gallon or JJ Smith, not because they were necessarily BETTER than the little guy, but because they ran with grit and determination before KSU was able to lure the types of linemen Sproles ran behind. Even in 04, his line was better than any that Gallon ever ran behind.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 25, 2010 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Like I said
I need to see the arguments, because I don’t anything about KSU backs before Sproles.
I’ll try to keep an open mind, but no guarantees.
by ChrisP Wildcat on Oct 25, 2010 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions
dammit
should read: “I don’t know anything about KSU backs before Sproles.”
by ChrisP Wildcat on Oct 25, 2010 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Numbers-wise, there ISN'T an argument to be made.
But, if you were a fan pre-1996 or so, then you know what I mean. The talent-level on our lines from 1990 to 2003 grew to such an extent that it’s very difficult to simply compare numbers to decide who’s the greatest back in KSU history.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 25, 2010 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions
That's why you guys need to make the arguments
Because all I have to look at is the numbers, I don’t really know the context, and I don’t have the KSU pedigree (in that I grew up in San Diego and none of my family is from Kansas) to know any better.
I want to know more about KSU history and our good players, so tell me about them.
Furnace, where are you?
by ChrisP Wildcat on Oct 25, 2010 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Right here, thinking about this
Well, O-line or not, my vote goes to Sproles, and I think the poll will end up being who the second best is.
Also, I’m a little jaded on this because I think what someone does in the pros is an indicator of how good a college player is. Like that Heisman crap, saying a Heisman winner’s pro career is irrelevant to considering whether the Heisman vote was legit. Yea right, and Jason White deserved the Heisman. And to me (not sour grapes, it’s just that to me it’s a no-brainer that Lynn Dickey was a far superior college and pro QB than Roberson was; (just look at Dickey’s wiki page – the guy was a warrior in college and the pros).
Also, I’m disappointed in the KSU athletics website, because I find it hard to navigate it to find links to things like "all time leading rusher" and other records. If someone can link something like that, it would move the discussion along.
I’m searching the memory banks and I’m gonna throw out some names. I don’t have time (right now) to do the research, but I’ll try to update this later:
1. Sproles (no particular order on the following names, I haven’t made up my mind yet):
2. Isaac Jackson (about 74-76)
3. Cornelius Davis (about 64-66)
4. Larry Brown (about 67-68)
5. Don Calhoun (about 73-75)
6. Veryl Switzer (about 53-56)
7. Hickson (95-98)
8. Daniel Thomas
9. Mack Herron
And remember, guys pre- 1971 only played 10 games a year (and were not eligible as freshman) and we know our bowl record; so the stats on guys who came later are skewed because they played significantly fewer games.
oh hail the Purple and White
Not sure if this is what you're looking for, but...
by purple_on_white on Oct 25, 2010 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions
That's exactly it
Every one should make a copy of this to their hard drive.
oh hail the Purple and White
that pretty much proves
that Sproles is the stud-duck of the poultry show.
The time for calm and rational discourse is past, now is the time for senseless bickering -Anonymous the Younger
by Anon_the_younger on Oct 25, 2010 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Josh Scobey should be in the conversation
based on a quick review of the record book, and he was a favorite anyway. Rock Cartwright, although not in the record book that much, was one darn good back, as evidenced by his long pro career (as a special teamer).
oh hail the Purple and White
damnit...
I totally didn’t see this when I made my suggestion for him down below.
Good one Furnace. :)
by Jeremy Sharp on Oct 25, 2010 6:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Actually, if Bryce is all he's cracked up to be, I think he might make a run at the little man.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 25, 2010 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions
I've seen Bryce play in person
He played against my high school (sorry for always doing this but it keeps happening) and he is a very hard runner. Runs downhill and if he has any sort of line can do some amazing thing. Very fast, and can make guys miss. The one knock I had against him in high school (other than playing against my own) is that he has had a tendency to fumble. Whether or not that is still a problem I am not sure about, but I do agree with you that he could be something special given at least a decent offensive line.
I'm also gonna have to go with Sproles
Just watching through some of his highlights over the past couple weeks shows me that he has to be real close to the top. The things he was capable of and the fact that he was one of the big reasons we made it to the Big XII championship that year. Not only the fact that he put up such big rushing numbers, but he was also named Special Teams POTW twice that season too. Against KU and against Mizzou. I don’t know whether or not you want to consider this in the decision, but all I am saying is that he was not just great out of the backfield, he was just a great player overall.
All purpose yards (returns and receptions) SHOULD be considered
oh hail the Purple and White
You''re probably right,
but coming from a fan who remembers the time before we had such great o-lines, I’m putting it up for a vote anyway. Maybe it’s just my sentimentality toward Gallon and JJ, but I want to at least give ’em a shot in a vote to see what happens.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 25, 2010 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Definitely
There should be a vote for every position, even if it is a landslide. This is a great opportunity to talk about all of KSU’s great players, even if there aren’t as many of them as other schools like Ohio State or Oklahoma.
I don’t know how much K. Scott knows about basketball, but I think we should continue doing this when we transition to B-Ball season for the basketball program.
We should also do one for the head coach, though admittedly in football the poll would be worse than pointless.
by ChrisP Wildcat on Oct 25, 2010 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions
I coached basketball for 10 years.
It’s my first love, and my first sports memory is of listening to a Jack Hartman-coached, Rolando Blackman-starring game sometime in the 1979 or 1980 time period. So, yeah, I think I’ll keep this up during basketball! :)
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 25, 2010 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Not to mention
Hickson’s career overlapped with Mike Lawrence’s career some, thus making what the both of them did even more impressive.
Great point
that I was thinking of, too. Hickson was a great RB, and so was Lawrence and they both were around the same period.
ick...
You know you aren’t going to find the information on wikipedia when it says the 1986 KSU football team represented during the 1988 season.
Lots of good players from the earlier years but I’m having trouble finding information on them. Sproles is impressive but he concentrated on 1 sport … earlier years, players might have lettered in 3 sports.
The time for calm and rational discourse is past, now is the time for senseless bickering -Anonymous the Younger
by Anon_the_younger on Oct 25, 2010 2:44 PM CDT reply actions
Ralph Graham
from Wikipedia:
“Graham, a native of El Dorado, Kansas, played football at Kansas State under head coach Bo McMillin. Known as “Rammin’ Ralph”, he was a first team All-Big Six Conference running back each year from 1931 to 1933. He nearly led K-State to the Rose Bowl in 1931 before getting injured. Following his senior season, Graham was a starter in the East-West Shrine Game. Graham graduated as the all-time leading scorer at Kansas State, and held that record for 64 years until it was surpassed by kicker Martín Gramática in 1997"
The time for calm and rational discourse is past, now is the time for senseless bickering -Anonymous the Younger
by Anon_the_younger on Oct 25, 2010 2:47 PM CDT reply actions
Josh Scobey
Really just throwing him out there as another name.
9 100 yard games
1981 career yards (#7) on 409 attempts
1263 yards in a season (#4)
16 TDs in a season (tied for 4th with ER3 and Sproles)
And he has also had some success in the NFL.
My vote goes for Sproles though.
I agree with him having a great O line, but watching high lights again, he made people flat out miss…a true ankle breaker. And being so small, any line would be useful for him. Like mentioned several times, the poll will really be determining 2nd best running back for KSU, but there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that.
also
Scobey had 4 rushing TDs in a game TWICE (granted, NM Stata and Iowa State, but still).
And is #3 in terms of career TD, with 31, behind ER3 and Sproles.
He only played for 2 seasons. Not bad.
He might actually be getting my 2nd place vote for real now. :)
by Jeremy Sharp on Oct 25, 2010 6:01 PM CDT up reply actions
That should be NM State.
I do know how to spell. I went to KSU after all.
by Jeremy Sharp on Oct 25, 2010 6:06 PM CDT up reply actions
What I should have asked for
was a list of your top 5 RBs, and culled the list from there. I should have realized that there would be an overwhelming number of Sproles support.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 25, 2010 7:00 PM CDT reply actions
I'm with you, K.Scott
I loved Gallon, too, and am always surprised at how he gets overlooked. He was huge in helping K-State take its first steps towards respectability under Snyder (along with Jamie Mendez, Michael Smith, Paul Watson, Andre Coleman and others). Furnace points out a few great ones in Cornelius Davis and Isaac Jackson. Sproles, of course, goes without saying…
I’ve got Sproles, Eric Gallon, Cornelius Davis, Josh Scobey and Eric Hickson as my top 5. Kills me to leave off JJ Smith, since – like Gallon – he was playing when I was at K-State and the dude was lightning. I’ve often heard that Veryl Switzer was the real deal, too, but being that he played in the 1950s there is little to go on video-wise (another victim of modern-bias).
Also, as a huge Washington Redskins fan I’d love to place Larry Brown in there, but – and perhaps Furnace can clear this up for me – I thought he played offensive line and then fullback at KSU? Meaning he didn’t get a ton of carries as a Wildcat.
Still, his name does open up another potential thread for you: Which former K-State players belong in the NFL Hall of Fame? – since KSU has none inducted who came from its program.
I think that guys like Switzer HAVE to be included.
That was back when seasons were shorter, and hype was MUCH less.
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 25, 2010 9:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Would you like a Top 5 RB let downs?
I would probably start with Thomas Clayton. Frank Murphy might find his way on there as well.
Very true
And wasn’t Murphy’s recruitment where some booster almost got us in trouble?
"Coaching a football team is the most engrossing thing in the world. It is playing chess with human pawns." --Walter Camp
by K. Scott Bailey on Oct 25, 2010 9:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Sproles
1. He flat made people miss.
2. He made the absolute most of what talent he was given in a package that a lot of BCS level coaches would have turned away just on first look.
3. When you look at the video clips, he made great yardage on a lot of plays that Hickson & Gallon would have been stopped behind the line. They would have tried to bull through the tackle instead of juking out of it.
4. I understand the nostalgia and I would throw my two cents worth in for Mack Herron (dare I say one of the least attractive football players to ever wear the purple and white) but the truth is, the typical defensive lineman in that day and age wouldn’t be able to make most rosters today. Shoot, they wouldn’t make a lot of Div III rosters today. Even the slowest defensive lines today are faster than those guys were.
In addition, Darren is somewhat of a Mack Herron protege in that they were both small in stature but quick, determined, and able to spin on a dime.
It’s just Sproles. That’s it.
If I'd known I was going to live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself.
I disagree a little on the "era" comparisons
I think the linebackers of that day were a little slower, but with todays training techniques, the great ones from that era would be great one’s today, too. I am convinced the great Jim Brown from the 1960s would be the best today. But this argument is as old as sports arguments, and I’m not sure what the answer is.
oh hail the Purple and White
What, no J.J.Smith?
Probably the farthest back memory I can verify, but I remember watching the Copper Bowl in 1993 as a third grader at my grandma’s and him doing some sort of a back flip between the shoulder pads of two others after scoring one of his many TDs on the night agains Wyoming. That’s about all I remember of that game, keep in mind I was only a 3rd grader, but it was amazing. He has to be in the conversation because he’s still up in the top 5 I would have to think in many categories.
Daniel Thomas, at the rate he’s going should be in the top 5, especially for 2 yr career.
As for Sproles, another thing that works in his favor is what he was still able to do at the start of what I like to call the “Decline of the O-Line” in 2004.
whoops I'm an idiot...
That was Andre Coleman I was thinking of. Mixed that up. But JJ’s still deserving of being in the top 5. I’m assuming we’ll have a vote for best Full Back later? Because those guys were also instrumental in the other names being mentioned above. For novelty’s sake, can I get a Joe Hall anyone?
If you want five names...
…I’ll go with Sproles, Scobey, Hickson, Smith and Gallon.
But Sproles is my winner. He was my introduction to K-State football, and simply the most electrifying player I’ve ever seen.
We'll carry the banner high!
Bring On The Cats
Sproles was the second best player I've ever seen in a K-State jersey.
The first was Terence Newman.
Yes, I just said that.
Bring on the Cats
"Without getting into specifics, my exit involves a McFlurry machine and a video tape of risque commercials from overseas." -- Jack Donaghy
I dunno.
I’d say Sproles was third, Newman was second.
But then I have all sorts of irrational feelings of excitement whenever I remember David Allen.
My new blog: Those Other Guys. Critiques welcome.
I did a "Fan Post"
on pre-Snyder era running backs – a little long for comments. so go over there to get some insight into a few of the best of the old guys.
oh hail the Purple and White
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