The sticking point in the Frank Martin contract extension negotiations
by NYRoyal on Jan 21, 2010 8:19 AM CST
26 comments
I want to thank Jeffrey Martin for his inside information on the negotiations over Frank Martin's potential contract extension. This information gave rise to a firestorm of complaints and condemnations from Wildcat fans. But I want to point out that we don't really know what is going in the negotiations. I have no doubt that Jeffrey Martin is connected, but he's not in the negotiations. He's receiving his information second or third-hand. I'm sure both sides have exchanged numbers (dollar figures and years, perhaps more than that), perhaps several times. While it is easy to say, "just give Martin a nice raise" or "give the man the money he deserves" it isn't that easy.
For instance, let's say that John Currie and KSU are willing to give Martin a multi-year deal worth $1.5M per year. Most Wildcat fans would say that is both fair and appropriate. But that can't be their first offer. If Currie faxed a 4-year/$6M offer to Martin's agent, do you think they'd just accept? Of course not. They are going to counter with a higher number, undoubtedly something like 4/$8M. My point is that whatever K-State offers instantly becomes the contract floor and that what is eventually agreed to will be higher than that. This does not mean that K-State should necessarily start with a ridiculous, insulting lowball offer. That might have been what they did. Maybe. We don't know for sure. But contract negotiations are about meeting in the middle. Neither side gets everything they want.
But I don't think this is just about money. It seemed like the prevailing tone in the comments on Jeffrey Martin's post was that K-State is being cheap and if they'd just offer a nice raise, Martin would sign and stay at K-State for many years. There are several assumptions and leaps of faith there which might not be warranted. The sticking point in the negotiation might not be salary or years. Certainly they are at issue, but I'm sure K-State wants a contract that actually keeps Martin in Manhattan. Let's take a ride in the Wayback Machine to 1990. Lon Kruger had just led the Wildcats to their fourth NCAA torney appearance in his four years as head coach (including an Elite Eight appearance). Kruger then thanked the University for their money and the fans for their support by leaving for the University of Florida. Does Martin want to stay at K-State? I'm sure many fans would say, "As long as he gets the right money and respect from the University and support from the fans, I'm sure he would." First, that's just a guess (or wishcasting). Second, even if K-State gives Martin a big raise, he can still get more money and more prestige from a school with a bigger name and deeper pockets.
What I'm suggesting is that one of the big sticking points in the negotiation might be some sort of penalty or buyout that Martin would have to pay if he leaves before the contract is up. If Martin has his sights set on using K-State as a resume-builder so that he can move onward and upward when he gets a good offer elsewhere, then he's going to want little or no such penalty/buyout. K-State, on the other hand, would want it to be significant.
I don't think this contract negotiation is a simple good guy (Martin) vs. bad guy (Currie) situation. Martin may well be looking for the contract which is easiest to get out of, regardless of the salary involved.
All comments, FanPosts and FanShots reflect only the view of the user creating them.
1 recs |
26 comments
Email
Print
Comments
If
a job in south Florida (i.e. U of Miami) opens up and they offer Frank more money, he’d be a fool not to go back home. I’ll guarantee you he thinks about that, and I’m sure his wife does too. So he is definitely going to want a smaller buyout. Even with that fact, if the figure that KK reported yesterday (a raise somewhere in the 40k range) is true, I’d consider it a slap in the face. But, I guess negotiations have to start somewhere.
I truly believe that all of us might as well anticipate a coaching change within the next 16 months. Hopefully I am wrong.
by GCat on Jan 21, 2010 10:47 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
That's a real positive outlook
Not.
by BracketCat on Jan 21, 2010 2:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry man
but I’m just looking at it how I see it. I seriously can’t see him staying long term. Now, don’t let my comments make you think I don’t want him to stay. If Currie doesn’t do everything in his power to keep Frank here, I’ll be as angry as everyone else. I absolutely love his style of coaching and style of play. Let’s just say I’ve probably got a serious man crush going on.
by GCat on Jan 21, 2010 4:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Two solutions which should always be easy
for two parties who truly want to have a long-term association. One or both of these is often part of a contract, but it seems to me that doing one or both of these things should resolve most problems outside of actual compensation.
1) “Okay, we recognize that other opportunities come along which are going to pull on you. We want to ensure that if we sign you to a long-term contract, that the odds are at least in our favor that you’ll stay, and if you don’t, we should get some sort of compensation for that… but at the same time, if you already know, right now, that there are specific opportunities you’d be desperately interested in if they were to materialize, then let us know now. We can structure things so that if one of those opportunities occurs, it’s easier on you to get out of this. In return, we get a higher buyout for any other opportunity you choose to pursue.”
2) “We realize it seems unfair that we should get a buyout if you choose to move on, whereas we can fire you if things go south. In that respect, it does seem that the question of loyalty is unbalanced. So let’s do this: in return for the buyout should you choose to leave, we’ll also agree to a buyout should you be fired (to be lessened or eliminated should you be fired for cause).”
Both of these solutions should effectively negate most of a coach’s objections if he really wants to stay. Of course, they wouldn’t do a damned bit of good if the coach was Larry Brown or… Lon Kruger.
Yes, I went there.
This space for rent.
by jonfmorse on Jan 21, 2010 11:22 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I like the mutual buyout
But I think Martin is leaving regardless. He probably won’t agree to a significant buyout even if the Unversity included a significant buyout if he’s fired. I think, like the vast majority of coaches, he wants to move on to a bigger school who will pay him more money. My guess is that it will happen after next season. K-State really can’t afford much more than $1.5M per year, plus the money he makes from the TV show, shoe contract, etc. A bigger school can easily afford $1.75M+, plus more money from a TV show, plus a bigger shoe contract, etc.
I wish guys like Lon Kruger were more the exception than the rule, but they are not.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Jan 21, 2010 1:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What exactly has Frank EVER said
that would give you that impression?
Unless the man is 100-percent false, and I have never got that impression, he doesn’t strike me as a careerist.
by BracketCat on Jan 21, 2010 2:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
How many coaches would turn down more money at a bigger, more prestigous school?
Very, very few. There’s no reason to believe that Martin would turn down a lot more money somewhere else.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Jan 21, 2010 2:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Who's to say we're not prestigious?
We’re a Top 25 all-time basketball program, after all.
The money, as always, is the key.
by BracketCat on Jan 21, 2010 3:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
We're not a frequent contender
We haven’t earned a reputation for being a prestigous school or basketball program. Since the Hartman/Kruger era, there has been a lot more failure than success. The revenue potential is lower, so salaries are lower. Manhattan, KS isn’t much of a draw for players or coaches. All of that leads to KSU being a less prestigous school than many D1 schools.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Jan 21, 2010 3:56 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Responses, in order
We haven’t earned a reputation for being a prestigous school or basketball program.
Who cares? The coach makes the program. ESPN sure treats us like a prestigious school right now.
Since the Hartman/Kruger era, there has been a lot more failure than success.
That’s pretty irrelevant to the current discussion. College kids hardly care what happened last year, much less what happened 10 years ago.
The revenue potential is lower, so salaries are lower.
How many millions of dollars do you really need before you are set? Frank already makes more than 98 percent of Americans, and he doesn’t strike me as the excessively greedy sort.
Manhattan, KS isn’t much of a draw for players or coaches./blockquote>
Our last three recruiting classes are laughing at you and calling you funny names. KK nailed this one today — it’s NO WORSE THAN LAWRENCE.
All of that leads to KSU being a less prestigous school than many D1 schools.Only if we let it become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
by BracketCat on Jan 21, 2010 5:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Who cares? The coach makes the program. ESPN sure treats us like a prestigious school right now.
I think a lot of people care. I think this probably includes Frank Martin. Being at a more prestigous school means more attention, more accolades and easier recruiting.
That’s pretty irrelevant to the current discussion. College kids hardly care what happened last year, much less what happened 10 years ago.
It is incredibly important. Ask people around the country if K-State is a good basketball school and most will say “no”. Reputations are built on what teams have done in recent seasons. It isn’t just about what is going on right now or last year. UNC, Duke, Florida, MIchigan State, etc. have good basketball relationships because of what they’ve done over the past several years. K-State has a pretty poor reputation with regard to basketball because of what they’ve done over the past several years.
How many millions of dollars do you really need before you are set? Frank already makes more than 98 percent of Americans, and he doesn’t strike me as the excessively greedy sort.
The vast majority of coaches (just like the vast majority of professional athletes) have ambition. They want recognition. They want to be valued. And the way we value people in this society is by how much money they make. If a coach can get $1.2M at one school (hopefully KSU gives Martin that kind of raise) and he can get $1.6M somewhere else (as well as more money from TV, shoes, etc. – and after another pretty good season, Martin will certainly be able to get at least this amount), nine times out of 10 he takes the bigger money. A 33% raise is pretty damn big. And then of course there is the better recognition and more accolades from playing at a more prestigous institution.
Our last three recruiting classes are laughing at you and calling you funny names. KK nailed this one today — it’s NO WORSE THAN LAWRENCE.
Manhattan, KS has been a recruiting challenge for KSU coaches for a long time. It’s difficult for coaches to get players to come here, and for the school to get good coaches to come here (and stay here). My point was that it is unlikely that Frank Martin or any other transplant considers living in Manhattan, KS a real draw. Lawrence is bigger, there is more there and it is much closer to Kansas City. Although Lawrence has its own recruiting challenges. Of course, for basketball, the great success of that program overcomes that. KSU doesn’t have that.
Only if we let it become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
It’s not a prophecy. It is a reality and it has been a reality for quite some time. We shouldn’t pretend otherwise.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Jan 21, 2010 8:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This hurt my head
It’s difficult for coaches to get players to come here, and for the school to get good coaches to come here (and stay here).
The only two KSU coaches in recent memory who voluntarily departed were Huggins, Kruger and Altman, and Altman was in jeopardy anyway, having lost 2/3 of his conference games over four years. The rest either were fired or retired at the helm. (Or have been there for 14 years, nod to Deb.)
And Huggins was a special case, since it was his alma mater that came calling. Somehow, although I can understand he might have the urge, I just don’t see Florida International as a threat to us. Especially considering the shape that program will be in when Isiah’s done with it.
This space for rent.
by jonfmorse on Jan 22, 2010 2:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
typo alert
Three, not two; I’d said “two” then remembered that Altman hadn’t been fired.
This space for rent.
by jonfmorse on Jan 22, 2010 2:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Most programs
play in places no better than Manhattan. And if the city were even a major factor in the “draw”, there wouldn’t be so many mediocre programs in New York City and Los Angeles.
I think what most people really need to understand is that there are two draws that matter: the Name, and the Coach. UCLA or Kentucky can get recruits even amid coaching turmoil because they’re UCLA and Kentucky; otherwise, players want to go to a school where they trust the coach and know he’s got a great program. The coach brings the prestige, modified by the prestige of the school itself. (Example: Texas Tech suddenly became relevant when they hired Knight, but they didn’t suddenly turn into a recruiting paradise.)
In that respect, I think it might be easy to lure Frank away to a school like Indiana or Kentucky or UCLA or Duke or you get the idea, but 90% of the schools out there actually lose the prestige battle with K-State. 80% lose it so badly that they’d have to seriously outbid us to get him to leave.
This space for rent.
by jonfmorse on Jan 21, 2010 6:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Most programs play in places no better than Manhattan. And if the city were even a major factor in the "draw", there wouldn’t be so many mediocre programs in New York City and Los Angeles.
Are most large Division 1 schools in towns with a population of less than 50,000, AND at least 1.5 hours from the nearest genuine city, AND in a less than appealing climate?
In that respect, I think it might be easy to lure Frank away to a school like Indiana or Kentucky or UCLA or Duke or you get the idea, but 90% of the schools out there actually lose the prestige battle with K-State. 80% lose it so badly that they’d have to seriously outbid us to get him to leave.
I’m thinking of a big school, and/or a school with a pretty good basketball reputation. In that case at least half of the schools in the following conferences are more prestigous than KSU: Big 10, Pac 10, SEC, ACC, and Big East. Add that to a bigger salary and more ancillary income and it’s going to be pretty easy to lure Martin away from Manhattan.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Jan 21, 2010 8:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly?
Are most large Division 1 schools in towns with a population of less than 50,000, AND at least 1.5 hours from the nearest genuine city, AND in a less than appealing climate?
Look at the Big 12. Ames, Columbia, Stillwater, College Station, Manhattan. And Lubbock’s much larger, but it’s Lubbock.
Big 10? Iowa City, West Lafayette, Bloomington, State College. And only Indiana has more tournament appearances, I believe.
SEC? Auburn, Starkville, Gainesville, Oxford… Columbia’s a dump, and NW Arkansas isn’t exactly the most thrilling location on the planet despite its size. Only Kentucky has more tournament appearances.
Pac 10? Well, 7 of 10 Pac 10 schools are in major locales, but the other three not so much. Only UCLA and Arizona have more tournament appearances.
The ACC and Big East are the major exceptions (of all the teams in those two conferences, only Clemson and West Virginia are in a Manhattan-like environment). But at the same time, the major schools in those conferences have coaches who can be described as “entrenched” — including all the schools who’ve been to the dance more often than KSU.
Understand, I’m not arguing that there aren’t a bunch of jobs out there that a coach might find preferable; I’m just saying that you’re selling our history short, and Manhattan too. If little schools in the middle of nowhere can keep a coach around who’s quite clearly the primary factor in their success (because they’re not getting great recruits), then there’s no reason to assume that we can’t. And there are schools like that. Homer Drew ran a pretty successful program at Valpo forever. Mark Few’s been at Gonzaga for over a decade now, and he’s shot down offers from elsewhere. Bob McKillop’s been at Davidson for over 20 years, and they weren’t just good when Stephen Curry was there.
That’s just off the top of my head… and KSU is a “better job” than all of those. It really all depends on the coach; some guys want the Next Big Challenge (Rick Barnes used to be a good example of this, as did Lou Holtz on the football side), some guys want the Next Big Paycheck (Brown, Kruger), and some guys want to be Bobby Knight or Dean Smith or Mike Krzyzewski or Joe Paterno or …Bill Snyder.
This space for rent.
by jonfmorse on Jan 22, 2010 1:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
With regard to cities...
…there’s absolutely nothing about Lawrence or Lincoln that would lead you to believe a basketball or football power would be located there. It just so happens that they made a commitment to those sports a long time ago, had a lot of success, and that built over time. In that sense, tradition is huge, because it leads players who otherwise would never consider living in one of those places to go there.
We'll carry the banner high!
Bring On The Cats
by TB on Jan 22, 2010 7:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not going to argue this any further
All I will say is this: Winning solves everything.
by BracketCat on Jan 23, 2010 10:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, and do coaches ever say that they are just hanging around until they get a better offer elsewhere? Did Huggins? Did Kruger? Does anyone? Of course not. They are always committed to the job they have…until they take the next job.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Jan 21, 2010 2:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Frank Martin loves the fans here and I think is here to stay. Everyone is clearly overreacting to this contract situation that happens with many coaches every year. Just because he won one game?
by jdieker on Jan 22, 2010 9:40 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I agree that this is all an overreaction (and that’s saying something because I am usually thinking the worst about things like this). This whole thing has gotten completely out of control. I hope the players are focusing on Oklahoma State, unlike the fans.
The talk of underpaying Frank is coming from many of the same people that laughed at us for hiring him in the first place. There’s a lot of season left to enjoy, so let’s worry about this when there’s something more substantial to worry about.
PROUD & PURPLE
by ksubailey on Jan 22, 2010 3:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you guys think
The NCAA snubs will have any pull in the situation? Maybe Martin might lean towards going somewhere east coast because in a major conference he went 10-6 in league play and his team still didn’t make the tournament (which was bull, even if you don’t have marquee wins 10 wins in this league should get you in IMHO).
There definitely is a huge east-coast bias, I wonder if last season showed Martin that in order to make the big dance and make some noise you really have to win a ton of games in league play and/or have “big wins” i.e. a win against us and texas when they are ranked high.
And the Lawrence/Manhattah debate, I’m not sure where some of these viewpoints are coming from. “Its no worse than Lawrence?” Not saying Lawrence is “better” but it certainly is a lot bigger, close to KC and has a lot more…well attractions that young athletes enjoy (bars, clubs, etc). I’ve been to Manhattan many times visiting friends at KSU and had a lot of fun, but Lawrence I would think would have more city appeal for a basketball player. However I think location/town/etc doesn’t mean much in recruiting these days.
Sorry for the long post, I think this whole Martin situation is interesting. Hopefully the KSU athletic department can really make a statement and lock him up after the Prince thing. Just be careful though, after the Orange Bowl we were adamant about locking Mangino up for a long time, two years later we were running him out of town :)
by KU Grad 08 on Jan 24, 2010 11:54 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Personally, I wasn't saying Lawrence is the cosmopolitan equivalent of Manhattan
I was referring to things like climate, terrain, etc. Those are virtually indistinguishable, IMO.
I don’t think the snubs are too big a deal, because I don’t expect our teams to have that many holes again. Looking back, last year’s team probably wasn’t NCAA-worthy, so we didn’t have much to complain about. The 2006 team was much more deserving, and definitely got screwed, but that was Huggs’ problem, not Frank’s.
No, if he leaves, I don’t think it will be as much about money or prestige or things like that. It’ll be to get closer to home.
by BracketCat on Jan 24, 2010 6:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I agree
I just know if I was a coach missing the tourny with 10 wins would piss me off, I had forgotten that the first time it happened it was Huggy Bear’s team, thought that was Martin’s first year for some reason.
You can never fault a guy for going home (as we learned with Roy) but if that DOES happen, at least you guys have a lot of young talent stocked up and the resources to lure a good coach. So in this case the worst-case isn’t too terrible, although my money is on Martin staying
by KU Grad 08 on Jan 24, 2010 7:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
In whatever happens...
I hope Frank the best for himself and his family, but I would love to see him stay at K-State because he has quickly become my 2nd favorite coach in college basketball. My 1st…well, I’m a UK wildcats fan by birth, so I’m sure you can guess who that may be. :) But my wife went to and graduated from K-State and I have grown a love for these wildcats as well.
I cried myself to sleep (literally), pounding my pillow the night Laettner made me hate Duke. I would still love to punch Laettner in the face!
by ukcat1982 on Feb 6, 2010 11:46 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recent FanPosts
Certain photos copyright © 2010 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
