Part II: Why the Big 12 Needs to do Everything It Can to Keep Missouri
The continuation and conclusion of our series examining the possible effects of Big 10 expansion on the Big 12.
In Part I of this post, we examined the possibility that Big 10 expansion could target a Big 12 school, specifically Missouri. That post should have demonstrated that Missouri would consider a move to the Big 10, the Big 10 would be likely to consider Missouri, and that if Missouri left, the Big 12 would almost certainly end up a weaker conference. Today, we'll discuss this topic further, and offer a few conclusions.
5. Aren't we wasting our time discussing Missouri? Won't the Big 10 take Notre Dame?
As mentioned in Part I, my outsider's opinion is that Notre Dame is probably the school coveted most by the Big 10. It's been mentioned elsewhere, and I believe it's possible that the Big 10 is trying to force Notre Dame's hand. The conference is basically telling Notre Dame that it's considering the addition of a twelfth school, and that if Notre Dame is not that twelfth school, it will never get another chance to join the Big 10.
Currently, NBC's TV contract with Notre Dame pays the school $15 million per year. If Notre Dame could ever get eligible for a good bowl game again, any profit from the bowl payout would be Notre Dame's to keep, unlike in a conference where each bowl payout is pooled and shared by all conference members. Remember also that Notre Dame receives $1.3 million each year from the BCS, whether it makes a BCS game or not, and would get $4.5 million if it could ever rebound to go 8-4, thereby guaranteeing itself a top-eight BCS ranking and, thus, a BCS bowl. In other words, Notre Dame is guaranteed $16.3 million every year under its current arrangement, and could receive as much as $19.5 million per year if it made a BCS bowl. That's not too far away from the payout Big 10 schools receive from the conference each year if it makes a BCS bowl. Even if it doesn't, Notre Dame may place sufficient value on its independent status that an extra $5-6 million wouldn't be worth it.
The real question at this point is whether Notre Dame believes it can continue to garner such a TV contract. In the article linked above, NBC claims it has no qualms about its deal with Notre Dame at this time. Its ratings for Fighting Irish games are also competitive, though not outstanding, when compared with the rest of televised college football games. Basically, if the Big 10 extends another invitation, and the Irish say no, they are gambling that they will improve in the near future, or that NBC will continue pouring money into South Bend. As Dawg Sports' T Kyle King so eloquently put it, Notre Dame is likely in the throes of a manic episode, believing that Brian Kelly will lead them back to domination, so this might be a bad time for the Big 10 to ask.
As you can see, I think it's entirely possible that either Notre Dame turns down the Big 10, or the Big 10 is looking elsewhere. Notwithstanding all that, the mere fact that Missouri could be interested were the Big 10 to look its way is sufficiently concerning for the Big 12 that it needs to be ready to deal with that possibility.
6. If keeping Missouri is such a big deal, what can the Big 12 do to entice the Tigers to stay?
On Between the Lines this week, Kevin Keitzman discussed this very issue and concluded that the Big 12 needs to eliminate the requirement that changes to the bylaws be passed by a 9-3 vote of member institutions. The upshot of all that would be that changes could be passed by a bare majority vote of 7-5, and presumably we would end up with equal revenue sharing.
While equal revenue sharing in this conference has long been a goal of mine, it simply won't be enough to convince Missouri to stay. As noted in Part I, Missouri would only gain a couple hundred thousand dollars per year if the Big 12 shared all revenue equally. If the jump was about the money, this would pale in comparison to the extra $10 million or so Missouri would garner every year as a member of the Big 10. Therefore, I believe any plan to keep Missouri needs to include not only equal revenue sharing, but exploring additional sources of revenue as well.
As much as we may love this conference, it probably isn't going to garner a blockbuster TV deal like the SEC's or the Big 10's. Take a look at a comparison of top-50 markets in these three conferences:
Big 12 (8): Dallas (No. 5), Houston (No. 10), Denver (No. 18), St. Louis (No. 21), Kansas City (No. 31), San Antonio (No. 37), Oklahoma City (No. 45), Austin (No. 49)
SEC (10): Atlanta (No. 8), Tampa-St. Pete (No. 13), Miami-Fort Lauderdale (No. 16), Orlando-Daytona Beach (No. 19), Nashville (No. 29), West Palm Beach (No. 38), Birmingham (No. 40), Jacksonville (No. 47), Memphis (No. 48), Louisville (No. 50)
Big 10 (12): Chicago (No. 3), Philadelphia (No. 4), Detroit (No. 11), Minneapolis-St. Paul (No. 15), Cleveland-Akron (No. 17), Pittsburgh (No. 23), Indianapolis (No. 25), Columbus (No. 32), Cincinnati (No. 34), Milwaukee (No. 35), Grand Rapids-Kalamazoo (No. 39), Harrisburg (No. 41)
Unless the conference is currently working on an unforeseen new TV deal with ABC or ESPN that will dramatically increase income, the Big 12 is going to have to get creative in trying to find new revenue streams. It's been discussed that creating a Big 12 Network or exploring the possibility of Internet TV may be a new source of revenue. The Big 10 Network now generates $6 million per year for each school, despite its early growing pains. It's unrealistic to expect that a Big 12 Network would be as lucrative, but what if it provided another $3-4 million in revenue each year per school? An extra $4 million may sufficiently boost Missouri's take that tradition and history would win out over a few million.
In any event, I hope the Big 12 is more serious about keeping Missouri than conference commissioner Dan Beebe's comments seemed to indicate this week. Now, it's entirely possible that Beebe is posturing on this issue, just as it's possible that Missouri is posturing to get a sweeter deal out of the conference. However, given Missouri's demonstrated value to this conference, Beebe's comments reflect an alarming lack of concern over a potential Mizzou defection. In response to a question about how to keep Missouri in the Big 12, Beebe responded:
[We need to m]ake sure that they understand how well they're wanted in our conference, how well they're connected to the rivalries that have developed. There are a lot of Missouri fans that now enjoy playing Texas, playing Texas Tech, having the continued Big 8 rivalries with Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, not to mention Kansas, Iowa State and the others, so I think it would be a big departure for them to go try to establish rivalries with another part of the country.
Later, in response to a question concerning how the Big 12 would go about keeping Missouri should the Big 10 express formal interest, Beebe said:
As much as you can fight to keep them, we'd fight to keep them, [because] there isn't a member you want to lose. [But t]here isn't a lot you can do if they've already set the momentum in a certain direction.
First off, I know plenty of Missouri fans, and not one of them would list games against Texas and Texas Tech -- especially Texas Tech -- as a reason for staying in the Big 12. Frankly, rivalries will always pale in comparison to the lure of filthy lucre -- just ask Nebrska and Oklahoma -- and just as I believe he was doing when discussing the possibility of the Big 12 football championship game's permanent move to Dallas, I think he was avoiding an outright discussion of the real issue: money. Second, I agree that once the Big 10 makes a formal offer to Missouri, it is likely too late to change minds, but we damn sure better be doing something in the interim to show the Tigers that we're serious about offereing a deal that is, if not as sweet as the Big 10's, then at least close enough that the squishy factors like "tradition" and "rivalries" tilt the scales in our favor.
In short, we need equal revenue sharing and new streams of revenue. The question is whether any of the entrenched four -- Texas, Texas A&M, Oklahoma and Nebraska -- would agree that losing Missouri was sufficiently alarming that equal revenue sharing was worth keeping them. The possibility of more revenue might be enough to win one of them over, making the vote 9-3 in favor. As discussed in Part I, the Big 12 inevitably becomes a weaker conference without Missouri, diminishing the possibility of landing a blockbuster TV contract. The other consideration is the possibility that these schools would see Missouri's departure as the death knell of the conference. If they did, they wouldn't bother with trying to fix an obviously doomed situation, and would instead look out for themselves. The problem is, where would they go? Texas has no interest in the SEC, the Big 10 would already have 12 teams, and the Pac-10 seems awfully far away. The Longhorns could undoubtedly thrive as an independent, but would the Texas Legislature let them leave Texas A&M -- not to mention Baylor and Texas Tech -- out to dry like that? The possibilities are enough to be the subject of a separate post, but my opinion is that these schools would be better served to preserve the Big 12 as it is than to chance a dramatic realignment of college football.
7. Does the Big 10 have ulterior motives here?
Several reasons for Big 10 expansion have been discussed, all involving money. The addition of a conference championship game, in a huge venue like Chicago's Soldier Field, Indianapolis' Lucas Oil Stadium, or even Green Bay's Lambeau Field, would mean a payday for the Big 10. That game would be broadcast to all those huge Big 10 markets and the rest of the country, whether by the Big 10 Network or ABC/ESPN. Finally, a new team would most likely open a new TV market for Big 10 Network expansion, whether that's east -- New York City -- or west -- Kansas City/St. Louis. All of that means more money for the Big 10, which is a necessity if the conference is going to bring in a twelfth school with whom to divide money.
I'm not claiming that money is anything other than the primary goal of this merger, but it seems the Big 10 could accomplish other results by expanding. For the past two years, at least, the SEC and Big 12 have been considered the best football conferences in the country, while Ohio State's repeated title game drubbings, Michigan's demise, and USC's utter domination of the Rose Bowl have combined to relegate the Big 10 to almost second-class status among the major conferences. It has to be galling for the Big 10 to endure such criticism, given that the Big 10 used to be the gold standard for college football conferences.
The point is, there's yet another reason why the Big 10 may take a long look at Missouri. Part I demonstrated how much Missouri's loss would affect the Big 12. Even if Missouri's new TV markets and a Big 10 conference championship game were only a wash given that a twelfth piece of the pie had to be divided, the fact that the Big 12 would be weakened by the loss of Mizzou may be enough to make it worthwhile to the Big 10.
8. We don't care about the money. Would Missouri really leave behind its legacy in the Big 12?
The University of Missouri has deep ties to the Big 12 and its precursor conferences. Mizzou was a founding member of the Missouri Valley Intercollegiate Athletic Conference in 1907, and has been a part of the Big 6/Big 7/Big 8/Big 12 ever since. Most of the old Big 8 schools -- the current Big 12 North plus the Oklahoma schools -- have been affiliated with Mizzou for decades, if not a century.
The biggest consideration is whether Missouri could leave its historically significant -- that feels like the mother of understatements -- rivalry with KU. It's a rivalry that started in the pre-Civil War days, and back then it had nothing to do with sports, but rather unimportant things like life and death. A complicated swirl of events involving slavery, state's rights, and even the mere ability of those in western Missouri and eastern Kansas to live their lives without the fear of murder, rape and plunder combined to unleash a bitter feud that is a lingering memory 150 years later in this part of the country. In fact, the State of Kansas is probably one of the few places in the country where one school's primary rival is not its in-state school of the same conference, but rather a school from another state. To say the Border War is a big part of Missouri's identity would be like saying Lebron James is pretty good at basketball.
In recent years, as Missouri's football program ascended to previously unknown success under Gary Pinkel, the Tigers dared to be so impudent as to steal Nebraska's birthright, also known as the Big 12 North crown. Such an affront would not be tolerated by the Big Red horde, and thus the upstarts in Columbia have been deemed a public enemy by the school that "has no rivals."
Missouri also plays Iowa State for some stupid trophy that nobody cares about.
Are these rivalries enough to override the potential $10 million per year payday Missouri would realize by moving to the Big 10? As with any determination involving amorphous concepts, it's hard to say. The only rivalry that Missouri would really hate to lose is the Border War, and as we've seen with the Busch Braggin' Rights games, it's possible for Missouri to play a rival in the non-conference. Kansas City is a natural battleground for these schools, and yearly games at Arrowhead and Sprint Center could keep this rivalry going. Of course, there's no guarantee those relationships will be maintained in the absence of conference mandates. I suppose it's even possible -- though unlikely -- that the Big 12 would forbid KU to play Missouri in an attempt to punish the Tigers. Regardless, Missouri would have to give a lot of consideration to whether the Big 10's money was worth the possible loss of the Border War.
9. Hey, TB, over here. Yeah, this is still a K-State blog. We want to know what it means for the Purple and White.
If Missouri leaves, the best-case scenario for K-State is that the Big 12 picks up one of the schools mentioned in Part I and continues as a weakened going concern. While the loss of St. Louis and part of Kansas City would not be recoverable by the addition of any realistic candidate, the Big 12 could probably survive with the addition of a Memphis, New Mexico, Arkansas, or Utah/BYU. However, any prospects for a significantly improved contract from ABC or ESPN would probably follow Missouri out the door.
The possible disaster scenarios are too numerous to mention. If Texas can overcome its own state's legislature, it could make a go of it as an independent. Colorado has considered a move to the Pac-10 before, and one of their local reporters believes the jump would be made if offered again. In short, the Big 12 could disintegrate. If that happened, the best-case scenario would be that Oklahoma, Texas A&M and Nebraska were left without anywhere to go. In that situation, their best option would be to keep around the other conference schools and pick up enough schools of the Utah, BYU, TCU, Arkansas, Houston, Memphis, Boise State and New Mexico group as were necessary to form a viable 12-team conference. Again, this would come nowhere near matching the current Big 12, but it would be better than the potential disaster scenario.
The disaster scenario is, of course, that all the schools in the conference with big TV markets find homes elsewhere, and K-State is left in the dark with some combination of Nebraska, Iowa State, KU, Oklahoma State, Texas Tech and Baylor. If this happened, we would probably have to forge some sort of conference with the best of Conference USA (Houston, Tulsa), the Mountain West (TCU, Utah, BYU), and the WAC (Boise State). The result would be a geographically distributed conference with limited appeal even in its biggest TV markets, such as Houston, D/FW, Kansas City, Tulsa, Oklahoma City, and Salt Lake City. It makes me shudder even to think about it.
Conclusions
As you've probably gathered, I think it's imperative that we keep Missouri. The problem is, we won't keep Missouri based on money alone. We will have to do what we can financially -- equal revenue sharing and new revenue streams -- to make the money comparable enough that Mizzou's ties to the conference and rivalry games prevail. It will have to be enough to at least close the gap enough that Missouri decides keeping its rivalries and ties to these schools outweighs the fear of the unknown.
Some have mentioned recruiting Texas as a reason Missouri should stay in the Big 12. Nobody knows how that would play out, but I think it's an open question. Using the example provided in the link, maybe Iowa doesn't have Texas players because it has never tried to recruit Texas. Is one or two games in Texas per year really the reason Texas kids are going to Missouri? Or is it because Missouri's coaching staff has taken the time to cultivate relationships there and show the players that they can have success at a major-conference school?
What it all comes down to is whether the other 11 schools think Missouri is worth fighting over. This will come down to who the replacement would be -- and I don't think any of the reasonable alternative are sufficient replacements -- and whether the other schools think the Big 12 is worth saving if someone like Missouri leaves. Is saving the Big 12 worth giving up some money in revenue sharing each year to Texas, Oklahoma, Texas A&M and Nebraska? The answer to this question depends significantly on what those schools' other options are. If any of those schools could join a more lucrative conference or, in Texas' case, go independent, then saving the Big 12 is probably not worth it to them. But if the options are give up a little money in revenue sharing with the possibility of new revenue streams and a better TV contract down the road in order to keep Missouri, or lose Mizzou and, with it, bargaining power in the next TV contract negotiation, then the former is probably the better option.
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Comments
Just out of curiousity...
Why is it that the Big 12 doesn’t make as much money as a conference as the Big 10? Is it because of their lack of truly lucrative television deals? Or divisive ideas like anchoring championship games in one venue? It seems logical that 12 teams sharing revenue would make more than say ten (err..11). TB, where did you arrive at the 200k additional monies number for Mizzou if revenue sharing was implemented?
It could be argued that the Big 12 has dominated nearly all intercollegiate sports in comparison to the Big 10 (i.e. football, basketball, baseball, wrestling, golf, etc.) since its inception. Admittedly not all of these are broadcast but I think the point is understood. Why would Missouri want to leave a perceived and proven superior athletic conference for a lesser one?
The logical pick for Big 10 expansion of course is Notre Dame from both a rivalry and geographical standpoint. I always thought their joining the Big East in basketball was a backhand to the Big 10. They generally play at least two teams from the conference in any given football season. Whether they want to admit it or not their football prowess died sometime at the end of the eighties or early nineties. Their refusal to participate in minor bowl games, as is the case this year, because it is beneath them is laughable. Why in the world NBC would throw good money after bad to front their debacle is beyond me. (But joining the Big 10 would certainly give the Peacock Network more credibility in CFB.) Perhaps people are tuning in to watch the opponent of the week put another notch in the Gipper’s loss column? Joining the Big 10 would also improve ND’s consistently weak schedule that regularly includes up to two service academies each year (favorably they always seem the worst two in that given year). But I digress.
This is perhaps the second time in 15 years I have heard rumblings of Missouri wanting to go to the Big 10. It should also be mentioned that Iowa State would also be a serious contender for inclusion. (Don’t laugh…geographically Iowa and Minnesota are on their doorstep and would reunite the Hawkeye state.) Other than more money there is no real upside to joining the Big 10 for Missouri. Just substitute Ohio State for Texas, Penn State for Nebraska and Michigan for Oklahoma and you still have a daunting task of winning the conference in football. Perhaps they could make some headway in basketball but again, Minnesota, Indiana, Michigan, Ohio State, Michigan State and Purdue are quality opponents. So at best this would be a lateral move for them that perhaps makes them a few more dollars in the short term but does nothing for them otherwise. I really believe that the Big 12 has not been marketed to its full potential. Especially given the fact that we have comparable size television markets to those of the SEC. If this issue is approached aggressively over the next few years it could provide revenue streams that compete with those of our brethren in the South of which MU would not be involved.
I believe TB makes a great point in number seven as to the motives of the Big 10 although it sounds like a conspiracy (and we know these don’t occur). I would add that adding another member sets up an additional game for both a football and basketball championship game and the revenue that comes with it.
In conclusion, Missouri bolting for the Big 10 would not be a step up for their school. I am not sure any network would offer and independent Texas a deal similar to ND. The Big 12 is lagging behind the Big 10 and SEC yet is offering a better product on the field in the case of the former and similar product to the latter. Proposing to permanently locate championship games to one venue in a conference is just poor planning. Imagine the scenario of your favorite team making the game several years in a row. What’s the attraction of say going to Dallas 5 times in a row (Clark Griswold’s predicament comes to mind, “Look kids Big Ben, Parliament.”) Revenue sharing is…say it with me AD’s, President’s and Commissioners…a good thing.
I yield the remainder of my time to the gentleman from Kansas.
by Catbacker98 on Dec 21, 2009 3:54 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Just a couple comments
Good post.
Yes, the reason the Big 12 has less money than the Big 10 and SEC is directly related to the fact that our TV contract is not anywhere near the contracts those conferences have. I believe that both of their TV deals are worth double the Big 12’s. I don’t know if that’s because the networks aren’t interested in our TV markets, or because our teams have limited national appeal, or because we’ve had poor negotiators running this conference. It could be a combination, or it could be none of the above.
I agree that, athletically, the Big 10 is at best a lateral move for Missouri. But given that their yearly payout would immediately double, it would make sense to move. If it’s a lateral move, meaning it’s essentially the same, then more money and better academic standing tilts the scales in favor of the Big 10. As far as where I got the couple hundred thousand dollars, it’s in Part I.
In Part I, I mentioned that ISU could be a target, but I’d be surprised if they were. They don’t bring anything new to the conference in terms of TV markets, and their overall athletic product is on par with a Northwestern or Indiana.
The seventh question was intended to be somewhat of a conspiracy theory, although I think it would make some sense. Just wanted to make it part of the conversation.
We'll carry the banner high!
Bring On The Cats
by TB on Dec 21, 2009 7:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
re #7
If the Big 10 would be looking to weaken the Big 12, it should also be said that adding Mizzou strengthens the Big 10. They’d be what, 3rd/4th best team in the conference the last few years?
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
by Warden11 on Dec 21, 2009 9:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the feedback
TB thanks for the clarification on the revenue. I reread Part 1 and now have a better understanding of the Big 10 sharing model. Do I understand this correctly that the Big 12 does not split their bowl monies between all of its members schools? Ditto for television appearances by individual members in respective sports? If so, can I assume that UT, OU, A&M and NU are the ones who don’t want to share? If so, how arrogant and self defeating to dilute your conference to improve ones own standing.
by Catbacker98 on Dec 21, 2009 2:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Half of the TV money
All of the bowl money is split evenly, except for travel expenses, etc. Half of the TV money is split evenly among the schools, while the other half of the TV money is paid out depending on how often the team is actually on TV.
by Texas Wahoo on Dec 21, 2009 3:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Some great writeups...
… it will be interesting to see where this goes.
by hed64 on Dec 21, 2009 7:18 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Great couple of posts here.
Worst case scenario is really bad to think about for KU fans, the money being poured into football right now needs a powerful conference and money to make it worthwhile. K-State would also get hit fairly hard as you guys are trying to climb back to a top 25 program again.
For me, Arkansas would have to be the replacement school for the Big 12. The NW Arkansas area has around 400,000 people, not a small market. Arkansas has beautiful facilities and money coming out their ears. Adding any other mentioned school is a major step down.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
by Warden11 on Dec 21, 2009 9:49 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Arkansas
I think Arkansas would be a good add if MU left and I also think they might jump at the opportunity. The Big 12 definitely needs to provide MU a reason to stick around and the Big 12’s actions in doing so might be a determining factor in other schools even wanting to come to the conference. If they see a complete lack of loyalty to conference schools, with the exception of the bigs (UT) then it would be a huge risk to take. Arkansas is a school I would be excited adding to the conference, but I still think that MU is just trying to get a better deal from the Big 12.
by williewildcrack on Dec 21, 2009 10:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Arky misses Texas recruiting...
When Arkansas left the SWC for the SEC it was transformed from a perennial national championship contender to a third-tier program. Why? Before joining the SEC, Arky’s roster was loaded with Texas players. Compare that to Arky’s roster today. It’s not just that Arkansas played games in Texas. The Texas players on Arky’s teams got to play their former high school friends and opponents on other SWC teams. And their families and friends heard about their exploits because the SWC received all the coverage in Texas. If Mizzou goes to the Big 10, it’s Texas player pipeline will close. Ask any Razorback about that.
by Blackbeard'sGhost on Dec 21, 2009 11:09 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
One more note...
I would hate to see Mizzou leave but would like to see the Big 12 changes it may force by threatening to leave. I’m starting to see some cohesion in the Big 12 and even some budding rivalries between North and South teams.
by Blackbeard'sGhost on Dec 21, 2009 11:16 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
worst case, unrealistic
As a KSU blog, there’s a valid concern should Mizzou jump ship, but the suggestion that UT would “go independent” is simply unrealistic. Even ignoring the Texas legislature (which would fight that tooth and nail) I think there’s only a 2% chance (at BEST) that UT could “pull a Notre Dame” and get an auto-BCS berth if they’ve got 10 wins or so. Without that, UT will be an “also ran” in the title chase, and UT alums will NOT accept that.
I’d say a more likely “worst case” for the North is that the South teams (Texas group + Oklahoma group) will get together and try to reconstitute the SWC. ie. Rip out of the Big 12 and try to re-integrate other Texas teams (TCU, SMU, UH, etc.) maybe try to get some other regional players (Arkansas) and make a go of that. It wouldn’t be as “sexy” nationally (at first) but if you get a high enough level of play and strong teams, they’d get the TV backing. Plus schools like UT and OU can be the bullies they enjoy being. To me, that’s more likely than Texas going “independent”.
by HeeroTX on Dec 21, 2009 12:00 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Re-building the SWC?
that conference died for the same reason Mizzou is unhappy now – it was horribly, horribly run. An unequal playing field, being treated like a step-child by the conference office. No way Arkansas wants to come back to that party.
And saying that getting rid of Nebraska, kansas, Colorado in favor of TCU, UH, SMU is reasonable is just preposterous.
by M. Omar on Dec 21, 2009 5:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
There are a lot of Texans that remember the SWC fondly, if only because it was the “glory days” for the Aggies and the Longhorns got to be a bully on that “unequal playing field”. I’m not saying it’s a great idea or that it WOULD happen, I’m saying it’s MUCH more likely than Texas going independent. You could get most of the Texas schools to go along, be it for “warm fuzzies” or “better than what you have now” or “no other good choice”, and I think if the option was to stay in a collapsing Big12 or be the “other” bully in the SWC, OU would join and OSU would fall in the “no other good choice” bucket.
Losing Nebraska would be painful and they might TRY to find a way to drag em along, but regionally it doesn’t work and I think that’d fall under "acceptable losses. (I think OU would try to arrange something in non-con) KU and CU are in significant markets, but if Texas SERIOUSLY thought they could go it alone as an independent, then losing both of those in “conference” is no big deal.
Again, I’m not saying this WILL happen, I’m just saying it’s a LOT more likely than UT going it alone. I think it’s more likely still, that the Big12 just reloads Mizzou’s slot if they leave.
by HeeroTX on Dec 21, 2009 6:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Who would take Mizzou's slot?
It seems as though you are in the “no big deal” camp if Mizzou leaves – so who would you just reload with? TB makes a strong argument that the possible replacement options are a big drop-off. Losing the second largest state, and one with two large media markets hurts the conference, right?
by M. Omar on Dec 21, 2009 6:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess..
…I am in the “no big deal” slot for one simple reason:
“What do we lose REALLY?” If TB really believes the possibility of the “disaster scenario” he mentioned (Texas breaks off to go it alone), then that implies that Texas truly has the clout to do such a thing (something ONLY Notre Dame is currently “successful” with and their success is debatable, in fact Notre Dame’s condition is a good reason why Texas WON’T do that). If we assume Texas has such clout, but is NOT so monumentally stupid as to believe they’re that bullet proof, in a “worst case” scenario the Big 12 and Big 10 merely “swap places” in the grand scheme of power. Will we get as many TVs or eyeballs? no. But does that matter? Who watches ACC or Big East football, outside those conferences almost no one, but they’re still auto-qualifiers. If Texas or Oklahoma or Nebraska goes undefeated, they’re in the title game (deserved or not), and if anyone else in the conference goes undefeated their odds will be just as good as they are now. (ie. either they’ll be respected as being in a conference with the other 3, or they’ll be ignored as “doing well in a ‘down’ year”)
I think the simple fact is this, if you can win the title, you’ll make money. Maybe you can make MORE with the “right” teams in the conference, but you’ll make money if you’re the champion. As long as the teams in the conference are GOOD, then our conference has a shot at the title. These are the only things that matter. Is it somewhat short-sighted to not consider the financial implications for “off years”, sure. Do we have reason to think that likely potential replacements for Missouri would not be CONSISTENTLY “good”? You bet. But at the end of the day the GOOD teams will be popular. The popular teams will ALWAYS be the ones on TV, no matter any other characteristics (see: NFL teams that sometimes get blacked out in their own home markets). As a Texas Tech fan, I can point to times when my team’s games weren’t even televised PERIOD, let alone widely. So I think most fans are worrying about the level of play, before worrying about the number of eyeballs.
by HeeroTX on Dec 22, 2009 10:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not to mention all the corruption and scandle
by Bestofthewest on Dec 22, 2009 10:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
While the SWC was very corrupt
The SEC is similar. The difference is the NCAA has learned their lesson and will never come down as hard as they did on SMU, etc. The SEC has plenty of scandals involving recruits getting paid, but the NCAA just slaps them on the wrist now – no reason to hurt the cash cow.
by Texas Wahoo on Dec 22, 2009 11:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ulterior motives
If you’re suggesting the Big Ten might be expanding to get better athletically, I just don’t see it. While Mizzou has been pretty good the last couple of years, assuming they will remain good over the long haul seems like quite an assumption. It would certainly be interesting to see what would happen to them as far as recruiting is concerned. I’m guessing they would start to lose a lot more Texas guys to KU, KSU, Nebraska, Baylor, etc. As far as football, they would clearly rank below tOSU, Michigan, PSU, Wisconsin, and Iowa. They would probably rank about the same as Minnesota, Michigan State, Purdue. They would clearly rank above Indiana, Illinois (although Illinois has at least gone to the Rose Bowl recently), and Northwestern. Mizzou doesn’t really add anything to conference as far as football is concerned. Perhaps their basketball program could be more than a middle of the road team in the Big Ten.
by Texas Wahoo on Dec 21, 2009 3:10 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
MU did win conference titles last year in
basketball, softball, soccer, wrestling and won the weaker football division two years running.
But that is beside the point. If the Big 10+1 wants to expand, then who is the best choice? Not what school makes the conference better. ND, obviously – then, who?
When TU and friends joined the Big 8, it wasn’t like Tech and Baylor made the conference athletically better. It just facilitated a greater overall bargaining position.
by M. Omar on Dec 21, 2009 5:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And perhaps Mizzou is on the rise as an athletics department
But if you look at their overall athletics department, they have won the fewest conference titles of any team in the Big XII with 6 (one behind KSU and five behind ISU and Tech).
Forgive me if these numbers are slightly off, I got them from wikipedia.
And they finished third in basketball last year…
by Texas Wahoo on Dec 21, 2009 6:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Regardless of athletic esteem
the point is that Mizzou is in the running for other reasons: existing as a 12th team (enabling a title game), bringing two large media markets, being a regional and academic fit…
by M. Omar on Dec 21, 2009 6:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
My point about the ulterior motives...
…was sort of a “combination of factors.” And I fully admit it sounds like a conspiracy theory, but after I’d thought about it, I wanted to put it out there.
Mizzou isn’t a home run athletically like Texas would be, but they certainly don’t hurt the Big 10. Combine that with the fact most replacements for the Big 12 would be, at best, a wash, and the fact that the Big 10 gains new TV markets while the Big 12 loses same, and it starts to seem feasible.
We'll carry the banner high!
Bring On The Cats
by TB on Dec 21, 2009 6:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I was just saying I think Mizzou does hurt the Big Ten athletically
Mizzou is below average as an athletics program and below average academically, at least in the Big Ten.
by Texas Wahoo on Dec 21, 2009 7:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Academically, yes...
…they’re below average in the Big 10.
Athletically, I don’t agree. In the last few years, they’d be in the top half of the league. In basketball, they’d be in the top half of the league. I mean, they’d fill bowl slots and compete for NCAA Tournament berths. Now in a historical context, they’d be below average, and there’s some question as to whether this is the new standard for Mizzou, or whether they’ll revert to form at some point. Frankly, it’s amazing to me that they’ve been as average as they’ve been historically. The only major college in a good-sized state and solid financial resources should do better than Missouri has.
We'll carry the banner high!
Bring On The Cats
by TB on Dec 21, 2009 7:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess it depends on whether the Big Ten cares about non-revenue sports
I am still startled that Mizzou has fewer conference championships than KState, no offense to KState.
I think Mizzou would be a lot like the other average teams in the Big Ten in the revenue sports (Minnesota, Purdue, etc.) Not going to win the conference, but may compete for the Capital One/Outback/Gator bowls occassionally.
by Texas Wahoo on Dec 21, 2009 7:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Mizzou has the least amount of Conference Titles since the Big 12 was formed
but not throughout their history. They have more then Tech, I dont know if anyone elses has less but I know that. I dont think we will see a change in the football program. Missouri is the 2nd largest state, true, The reason they never did good in football can be blamed on all the in-state kids going to other schools (NEB). Its not like that anymore, They have sealed the borders. I think Mo will compete in the North as much as OU competes in the South. Now, Do I think MO will consistently compete with the south, probably not.
Big 10- Lossing MO would hurt the Big 12 more then any other North team besides NEB and even that is debatable. You dont lose 2 of your top 5 markets and not be hurt by it.
Accademically, Mizzou is not a match. To be honest TX is the only match in conference and even they would be weak in the Big 10. Miz does have a Law School, Med School so they match up there. After a few years Miz would get better academically just by being in the Big 10.
Im a Miz fan and I have moxed feelings about. Recruiting, I dont think we would totally lose TX but we wouldnt be pulling 7-9 players a year from TX. However, I think MO recruiting would be closed off to KS and NEB which would hurt them as well. We also would be able to go into Illi and Ohio for recruits. Im for whatever brings the university the most money though. Sure, I would miss the Big 12, and it would succk to see it take such a hit, but they have tooken MO for granted if you ask me.
by darwithabar on Dec 23, 2009 6:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Your disaster scenario assumes that most grads of Big 12 South schools live in the college town
1/2 of all Texas Tech graduates live in the Dallas / Ft Worth area, so you might as well tie that media market to Tech. Houston is chock full o’ Aggies. And Longhorns wind up everywhere in the state. Baylor sends their grads to all the major cities, there just aren’t nearly as many of them because it’s a small private school & only idiots would consider getting a university education from Baptists (Our lesson today, these are all the scientific discoveries of the last 200 years that we deny the reality of!).
by mbrown603 on Dec 21, 2009 4:39 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
First of all...
…let’s keep the conversation focused on sports. Let’s not get into a discussion of religion.
My disaster scenario actually does not assume that the grads live in the college towns. I wasn’t thinking in terms of Lubbock and Waco in terms of TV markets. Look at it more closely. The disaster scenario involves losing UT, TAMU and OU. Here’s my quote about what the “new” conference would look like:
result would be a geographically distributed conference with limited appeal even in its biggest TV markets
Are there a lot of Tech and Baylor grads in D/FW and Houston? No doubt. But the point is, there are a lot more UT, TAMU and OU grads in those cities, thus the comment about limited appeal in the biggest TV markets. To make the same point, the University of Houston could be added, but we’d lose a lot more than we gained in Houston if we lost UT and TAMU. Add to that the fact that UT and TAMU produce a lot more grads than Tech each year and have a lot more t-shirt fans, and you’re starting to talk about a gap that can’t be closed.
That’s not meant as a swipe at Tech, it’s merely stating facts. It’s the same way for K-State fans in KC vis-a-vis KU fans.
We'll carry the banner high!
Bring On The Cats
by TB on Dec 21, 2009 6:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Baylor hater?
Man, that baptist bashing was so completely out of nowhere. Seriously, where did that come from…?
by williewildcrack on Dec 22, 2009 9:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Replacement for Mizzou
Mizzou was one of the greatest underachievers in the Big XII. They may choose to go to hell or another conference if they so choose, we need to be proactive and find a replacement. There is some merit to the fact that bringing TCU in will not help increase revenues much but this can be corrected if we choose another team in a new market. Utah, BYU and Boise State come to mind. I don’t really believe it will be that difficult to replace a team in a power conference. Also, Mizzou’s revenue generating prowess seems to be a bit of an exaggeration to me.
by jef on Dec 21, 2009 8:56 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Just excellent series TB
I think you are on the money vis-a- vis the Great State of Tejas legislators. There are too many Techsans and Farmers in that body to let uT go.
Give 'Em Hell Tech!!!!!
by Plano Jeff on Dec 22, 2009 10:14 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I noticed two things in your essay . . .
Do you really think the Big 12 could forbid Kansas from playing Missouri? Who would want to be in a conference with this power? Certainly not Kansas.
And you mention the power and role of the Texas Legislature several times. Are you implying that it is THEY who actually control the Big 12? Again, if so, whay would schools in Kansas, Missouri, Iowa, Nebraska, Oklahoma and Colorado want any part of this conference?
Back to why Mizzou would be better off in the Big 10. Regarding academic prowess; aside from Texas and Baylor’s Medical School, Missouri with their Journalism School and other degrees, has a recognized academic standing that is prestigious enough to fit in the Big 10.
by Scott Simon on Dec 22, 2009 11:25 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
The Big 12 could probably forbid Kansas from playing Mizzou - but they wouldn't
The Big Ten forbids their teams from playing schools with native american mascots (with an obvious in-conference exception). I’m sure they could do it, but I don’t think the Big XII would care. My guess would be that KU may threaten to end the rivalry if Mizzou leaves for the Big Ten, espcially if they are as afraid as TB that it may spell the end of the Big 12.
The Texas Legislature is only discussed because they have the ultimate control (purse-strings) over three of the schools in the conference. The only way they are relevant is if they try to prevent Texas and/or A&M from leaving Tech and Baylor behind. I don’t think they would this time, but they could make it uncomfortable for those other schools.
by Texas Wahoo on Dec 22, 2009 12:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It would come down to a battle of wills...
…if Texas wanted to leave. Would they be willing to risk decreased state appropriations for the move? Of course, from what I’ve heard, legislative appropriations have been going down for years, so maybe there’s not as much bargaining power there for the legislators.
The Big 12 more than likely would not forbid KU from playing Missouri, but technically they could. It was another of those things I added to have as complete a discussion as possible.
We'll carry the banner high!
Bring On The Cats
by TB on Dec 22, 2009 7:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Michigan State lost to the Central michigan Chippewas...
this year. So I’m not sure you are accurate in your first statement.
by TiK on Dec 23, 2009 11:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You appear to be correct
It looks like many of the Big Ten schools have decided they won’t do it – but it is not the entire conference.
by Texas Wahoo on Dec 23, 2009 1:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Academics vs. Athletics
Aside from Texas, Baylor and Missouri, the rest of the Big 12, including Iowa State, Nebraska and even Kansas are all thought to be “cow colleges” by the Big 10 institutions. I remember this term first being used to describe Penn State when they initially joined the league. But their size and football legacy overcame the negatives. Some of their women’s teams like basketball and volleyball are always near or at the top of the national rankings. They can’t yet compete in Big 10 men’s basketball, but Missouri or Texas certainly could. I think Mizzou will ultimately be the choice, though your idea of Texas joining the Big 10 interests me. The Big 12 without Texas would probably lose their BCS freebie slot. And your choices to replace any Big 12 school are interesting, but I think TCU has the inside track. Then a more accurate name for the Big 12 might be The CCZ- – Conference of Christian Zealots.
by Scott Simon on Dec 22, 2009 11:32 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Yeah...
B/C then the majority of Big 12 schools will be religiously affiliated…or not. In our faces.
by williewildcrack on Dec 22, 2009 12:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
wtf?!?
I thought TB was saying Texas would just “leave” and go independent, if you HONESTLY think UTexas would leave the Big12 to go to the Big10, you are high. For reference, with ALL considerations in mind, if the Big10 thought they could GET Texas, that deal would get done in a heartbeat, no question. (unless for some reason OSU or Michigan nixed it over competitive fears, but I highly doubt that)
by HeeroTX on Dec 22, 2009 12:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Funny thing about the Baylor jab, they beat Missouri this year. Guess they know something. Also check to see where Baylor ranks in total Big 12 Championships, might be surprised.
by Kp2 on Dec 22, 2009 1:57 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Baylor is tied with OU for 4th with 34 big 12 championships. Only Texas, Neb, A&M have more. Last place? Missouri with 6.
by Kp2 on Dec 22, 2009 2:08 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Great post(s)!!!
Tiger fan here…would just like to say how refreshing it was to read through a chain of posts without having to endure rivalry bashing, senseless opinionated drivel, and general hate filled comments made with no supporting facts. Kudos to you guys, great to hear some rational banter!! Great post, I’m not sure what direction I want my Tigers to go, however I do know that I don’t get that excited thinking about seeing em lineup against teams like Northwestern, Wisconsin, and Indiana (yawn)….
by TexasTruman on Dec 23, 2009 12:38 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Don't be too quick here Truman!
As a 40-year graduate of Minnesota and a lifelong Big 10 fan, I’d have to agree with you about Indiana and possibly Northwestern; although there are some great bars and restaurants in Chicago, just not in Evanston.
But as far as playing Wisconsin goes, I’d love to read your comments after one trip to Camp Randall Stadium in Madison. Playing Wisconsin at Wisconsin might be the highlight of the Missouri schedule. If you can’t have fun in Madison you aren’t tryin’. The Badgers have one of the best stadiums for watching a game in the country —better than Michigan, Ohio State and Lambeau Field. So, if Mizzou is lucky enough to be asked to join the Big 10, you should get ready to mark that first game against Wisconsin on your calendar. I think you will quickly change your attitude. Once in Wisconsin, you’ll realize you’re not in Lincoln anymore. The Badgers put on a great show for both their fans and the visitors. They are the true BIG RED. Trust me on this.
by Scott Simon on Dec 23, 2009 12:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
no offense, Scott...
Haha, thanks Scott…I do apologize, that was not at all a swipe at the quality of gameday in the Big 10(1). Not at all. From what I know about Wisconsin and others (good friend of mine is a Badger), they rarely fail to impress when it’s football Saturday.
What my post was trying to communicate is that I am very familiar with the Big XII (moreso Big 8) teams and what their fans and teams are about. Lincoln, Norman, Stillwater, Lawrence (gross)…I KNOW these towns and I have strong feelings about playing those teams as friends of mine from childhood have grown up rooting for rivals of Mizzou. I guess what I’m trying to say is that I don’t really know a Hoosier fan, and I don’t really know a Nittany Lion fan. I’ve met a few, but I don’t have history with them like the history I have with the marauding Jayhawks that Quantrill’s raiders had to fend off (sorry, had to throw some Civil War stuff in there).
I think Missouri WOULD be lucky to be invited to the Big 10(1), I just don’t know how it would sit with me if it came to pass. Change is tough, and I do love rooting against those Jayhawks……
Thanks for the information Wisconsin and the Badgers, sounds like a great atmosphere!!
by TexasTruman on Dec 23, 2009 2:51 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
As I said on DoubleT
If you’re really worried about Mizzou jumping ship, then grab Memphis from the bloated CUSA. Memphis basketball is tourney tested and their football program is not a complete disaster. Plus, for population:
Memphis > Kansas City and Tennessee > Missouri
I’d rather not have the conference start splintering, but I think it’s easily reparable if we want to do so.
by HeeroTX on Dec 23, 2009 4:05 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
correction:
CUSA is down to 12 members right now, from 15 or so before all the defections of 2005. Still, given the option I think Memphis would jump to the Big12 from CUSA.
by HeeroTX on Dec 23, 2009 4:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Memphis' TV market...
…does not replace the loss of St. Louis and a chunk of Kansas City. You’re forgetting that we would completely lose St. Louis if Mizzou left. Memphis is barely a top-50 market (No. 48), whereas St. Louis and KC are both top-35 markets. That’s the overriding point: Missouri may not seem to be that important, but when you start talking in terms of replacements, they are important, because no viable replacements bring what they do in terms of population and TV markets.
We'll carry the banner high!
Bring On The Cats
by TB on Dec 23, 2009 4:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
???
TN is still bigger than MO
St. Louis + Kansas City > Memphis + Nashville (granted) but it’s not by an insane margin, and I think it’s ridiculous to imply that Mizzou holds 100% market share in either St. Louis OR KC (altho their probably as strong in KC as Memphis is in Memphis). But if we grant that that combination is stronger than the TN combination, you still need to account for the fact that the Memphis metro area spans THREE states (TN, AR, & MS) and I think the added exposure (both on TV and in recruiting) that that spread brings would be “close enough” to whatever Mizzou brings to the table.
I’m not saying the Big12 should drop Mizzou and chase Memphis, but I’m saying if Mizzou decided to bolt, Memphis would be a more than suitable replacement. And besides, whether or not we have a solid “in” with the St. Louis market, isn’t going to mean the difference between a bigger TV deal or more conference prestige. The SEC has Florida and Georgia markets, and then what? Even worse, the Big East has SEVERAL of the largest TV markets and should have strong arguments for others, and who cares about that conference? How well are they doing?
by HeeroTX on Dec 23, 2009 5:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
we seem to be forgetting
Syracuse. In my opinion they would be a significantly Bette fit in the big 10 than Missouri. They provide for an expansion into New York markets, have similar academic goals, are competitive in basketball and have been at football, and are closer geographically to more big 10 schools. I think after ND, Syracuse should be the number two option, not Missouri.
by jtarkman on Dec 23, 2009 4:24 PM CST via mobile reply actions 0 recs
And maybe they are...
…but most of the early discussion — from Big 10 sites — has focused on Missouri.
We'll carry the banner high!
Bring On The Cats
by TB on Dec 23, 2009 4:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs













