Part I: Why the Big 12 Needs to Do Everything It Can to Keep Missouri
This post will be the first in a two-part series discussing the ramifications of the recent talk that Missouri could move to the Big 10 in the not-too-distant future.
As you've no doubt heard, the Big 10 has announced that it will explore the possibility of adding a twelfth school in the next 12 to 18 months. For a conference that clings to the past like dress pants to your leg on a dry winter day, this was big news. For the rest of the college sports world, this is also big news, because Big 10 expansion would likely lead to a chain reaction with far-reaching effects.
If Notre Dame is interested this time after turning down the Big 10 in 1999, and if the Big 10 is over that little rejection, then it stands to reason that the Fighting Irish would be the most likely addition. The Big 10 wanted ND before, and I doubt enough has changed that they wouldn't want them now. We'll discuss the situation surrounding Notre Dame in Part II.
It's big news to the Big 12, too, because it has long been known that Missouri has more than a passing interest in the Big 10. After it became known this week that the Big 10 was looking to expand, Mizzou officials released a statement saying they hadn't been contacted, but would consider the situation if they were. It wasn't just Missouri officials who were discussing the possibility. Several of SB Nation's Big 10 blogs hypothesized on who would be added, with most concluding that Missouri was most likely a candidate, and some others concluding that the Tigers make the most sense.
Given that Big 10 expansion could be the first domino to fall in a long chain, this raises a lot of questions for Missouri and the rest of the Big 12. This post will be dedicated to discussing and trying to answer those questions. For the sake of keeping these posts to manageable length, we're going to assume that the Big 10 is only going to add one school. Also, we're going to limit the discussion as much as possible to the more measurable factors, like money and academic prestige, rather than amorphous concepts like "ties" and "nostalgia" and "fan sentiment."
And for those of you who are a little more uninformed about that conference that hugs the Great Lakes, the title "Big 10" is a misnomer, as the conference actually contains 11 teams; thus, adding one would get them to the magical 12 that would make divisional play and a cash-grab conference championship game possible.
1. Why would Missouri jump to the Big 10?
When I've discussed this issue with others this week -- and it has been a frequent topic of conversation for me -- this is always the first question I am asked. The truth is that Missouri would have a lot of good reasons to move to the Big 10.
First, Big 10 athletics are much more lucrative than Big 12 athletics for the conference's member institutions. It's hard to know exactly how much money the Big 10 distributes to its member institutions each year because it doesn't release official figures, but we can at least get an estimate. This article from the Sports Business Journal shows that in 2006-07, the Big 10 distributed $154 million to its schools, or $14 million per school, because the Big 10 shares all athletic revenue equally. Obviously, that was two years ago, and did not include revenue from the Big 10 Network, which this article indicates was $6.1 million this year. As such, it doesn't seem like a stretch to believe Stewart Mandel when he estimates that the conference will distribute more than $22 million per school next season. Adjusting those numbers for the addition of a twelfth school, the conference would have distributed almost $12 million per school in 2006-07, and would distribute a little more than $20 million this year.
Now, compare that to Missouri and the Big 12. Last year, the Big 12 distributed $103 million to its schools, which would be $8.6 million per school if all revenue was shared equally. However, half of the Big 12's TV money is split based on number of TV appearances -- the more often you're on TV, the more money you get -- so Texas received $10.2 million, while Missouri took home $8.4 million. It's projected that the Big 12 will distribute $130 million to its schools for 2008-09, which would be $10.8 million per school if it was all distributed evenly. Specific school breakdowns were not available for this year's projected income, but if we keep the percentages the same, we can roughly estimate that Texas would receive $12.9 million, while Missouri would receive $10.6 million.
As you can see, Missouri would have at least 10 million reasons per year to leave the Big 12, and that's just if we're talking about revenue. However, there's more. The Big 10 is as much an academic conference as it is an athletic one. The academic arm of the Big 10, also known as the Committee on Institutional Cooperation ("CIC"), includes all of the athletic Big 10 schools, plus the University of Chicago, one of the most highly respected academic institutions in the country. From what I can tell, the CIC basically coordinates the activities of its member institutions. As I read the Big 10 blogs this week, it seemed to me that the CIC helps with coordinating research and providing unique academic opportunities to students at its member institutions, among other things. Make no mistake, for a school that is serious about "prestigious" academics, the CIC is a big deal. Missouri is just such an institution.
With that, I think we have provided enough information on why a school like Missouri, if offered membership in the Big 10, would give it more than passing consideration.
2. Does the Big 10 really want Missouri?
Obviously, I can't really answer this. Other than the Big 10 presidents, athletic directors, and conference commissioner Jim Delany, nobody has any idea at this point whether the Big 10 wants Missouri. As mentioned above, if the past is any indication, Notre Dame is probably the first target. It's not like there aren't other options, as schools such as Pitt, Syracuse, Rutgers, Maryland, and even other Big 12 schools such as Iowa State and Nebraska, have been mentioned. I'm not focusing on NU and ISU because a) I don't think they're particularly likely to be invited, and b) I don't think their loss would hurt the Big 12 as much as Missouri's would. More on that later.
SB Nation's blogs are managed by regular fans of each school who follow that school closely. Usually, they have a pretty good knowledge of what is going on in their school and conference. As such, I think it's illustrative that every Big 10 blog on SB Nation that I have seen discussing this issue considers Missouri a potential target. Some even consider them the obvious target. While the Big 10 has never expressed formal interest in MU, nor extended them an official invitation, there has been a long-standing belief among some Tigers that the Big 10 was the way to go, if an invitation ever materialized.
Taking everything into account, and being mindful that I have zero inside information, it would seem like Missouri would be near the top of any list of schools targeted for expansion.
3. What would happen to the Big 12 if Missouri did leave?
Among some fanbases in the conference, the answer seems to be "Who cares? We'll get someone else." Because Missouri has never been a dominant school in any sport, it's understandable that some take that approach. However, there's a lot more to this equation than prowess on the gridiron or hardcourt.
I bet every Big 12 fan can instantly name the largest state in this conference by population. Obviously, it's Texas and its 24 million residents. But I bet a lot of people would have to take a moment to answer the question "What is the second most-populous state in the Big 12?" The answer is Missouri and its six million inhabitants. The Show-Me State also contains the conference's best TV markets after Houston, Dallas and Denver, with St. Louis (No. 21 nationally) and Kansas City (No. 31).
In other words, if we lost Missouri, we would be out a state of six million people and a top-25 media market. St. Louis would cease to have any Big 12 identity, and Kansas City's identity as a Big 8/Big 12 town would be weakened, though KU commands a larger presence in KC than Mizzou.
Now, all that discussion of population and TV ignores the fact that, if the Big 12 desired to continue on, it would need to fill Mizzou's void with another school. Again, for the sake of brevity (yeah, right), we're going to assume that Mizzou's departure would not cause Texas to go independent, Colorado to jump to the Pac-10, and any of a million other scenarios that could happen.
The list of replacements for Missouri is not particularly enticing. In this area, I think we need to look primarily at schools that currently reside in conferences that do not receive an automatic BCS berth, as schools in other automatic-qualifier conferences are unlikely to jump to the Big 12 due to money and/or geography. Here's the list of possible replacements, along with a few pros and cons to each:
TCU: On the plus side, they've had a very good football program the last few years. But that's about all they have going for them. Texas Christian is a school of only 8,000 students in Fort Worth that couldn't even sell out its 40,000 seat stadium this year as its team made a run to the Fiesta Bowl. The basketball programs would be afterthoughts in the Big 12. Most importantly, it delivers nothing new in the way of a TV market. The Dallas/Fort Worth market is already owned by the Big 12, between Texas, Oklahoma, Texas A&M, Texas Tech, Baylor, and assorted alumni of other Big 12 schools.
Houston: Similar to TCU, the Coogs are on an upswing in football currently. While the men's basketball team is no powerhouse, they would be competent in the Big 12, and by "competent" I mean "they wouldn't lose by 25 in every game." Also, UH is a public university that's looking to reach Tier 1 status and might actually give us a little more penetration in the Houston TV market, a market that is divided between the Big 12 and the SEC, although I'm guessing we already have a pretty good hold on this market between UT and TAMU. However, Robertson Stadium at UH holds only 30,000, which would be by far the smallest stadium in the Big 12. Fan support at UH hasn't been great the last few years, even as the team improved. Also, I've heard that, as long as Tom Penders is the basketball coach at UH, Texas will adamantly oppose adding Houston to the Big 12.
Colorado State: With due respect to my good friend JSchwarz, absolutely not. The Rams are a middling MWC team in football and generally finish toward the bottom in basketball. As long as Colorado is in the conference, we have a solid footing in the Denver TV market, so CSU brings little TV attraction. Fort Collins is a nice town, but even that's not enough to make me interested in Colorado State.
Arkansas: I'll break my own rule that we won't discuss other automatic-qualifier-conference schools to acknowledge that there is a rampant Internet rumor that Arkansas is fed up with the SEC and might be interested in moving to the Big 12. Monetarily, it wouldn't make much sense, as the SEC distributed $135 million last year to its schools, meaning the average payout was $11.25 million. I have a hard time believing the Razorbacks would rank any higher than Missouri in the Big 12's distribution chain, meaning they'd be taking a $3 million paycut per year just based on last year's numbers. With the SEC's new TV deal, the league distribution is sure to increase going forward at a higher rate than the Big 12. The money difference isn't as big as it would be for Missouri, though, so maybe the pull of old rivalries with Texas and Texas A&M could pull the Hogs to the Big 12.
Now, would Arkansas adequately replace Missouri? Not really. The best TV market Arkansas delivers is Little Rock-Pine Bluff, which is only 56th nationally. In terms of overall population, Arkansas ranks just ahead of Kansas with 2.9 million residents. I like Fayetteville, and would enjoy road trips there, but Arkansas would be a downgrade for this conference compared to Missouri.
Utah: Now, we're getting to the schools that bring something to the table with respect to TV markets. Salt Lake City would be a comparable market to Kansas City. In overall population, Utah would again rank right there with Kansas, with about 2.8 million citizens. The Utes won a BCS bowl game last year and field a basketball team that would be competent in the Big 12. Now, that all ignores the giant elephant in the corner: geography. We already kind of consider Colorado "out there" in the Big 12, so I'm not sure what we'd think of Utah. It would be a real drain on travel costs to send the volleyball, women's basketball, baseball, and other non-revenue-generating sports out there. Again, the overriding point is that we would be better served to just keep Missouri rather than consider whether we could make Utah work.
BYU: See Utah.
Memphis: Like Utah/BYU, this would be a new TV market to the Big 12, although not quite as attractive as Salt Lake City, because Memphis is the No. 48 market in the country. Memphis isn't very good at football, and we don't know how they'll fare in basketball without John Calipari, but the basketball team already boasts somewhat of a national following. Again, the geography isn't great, bringing up the same concerns discussed with respect to Utah, but if we were to lose Missouri, it would be worth taking a look at these Tigers.
New Mexico: I'm sure some are laughing, but this would actually make as much sense as anyone else on this list. Geographically, it's a better fit than Utah/BYU. It brings in a top-50 TV market in Albuquerque-Santa Fe (No. 44). Athletically, the Lobos are nothing special, but they wouldn't be any worse than Baylor.
4. Could the Big 10 be interested in other Big 12 schools?
Sure. Nebraska and Iowa State probably technically fit the Big 10's academic profile, as both are members of the AAU and are fairly large state schools. It's not too far out in left field to think that the Big 10 may be interested in Texas, as just about any conference would welcome the TV sets the Longhorns control. However, I'm not going to discuss these at any length, because there are glaring reasons why the Big 10 may not be interested in these schools. First, Nebraska and Iowa State bring nothing to the table in terms of TV markets. Des Moines (No. 71) is the best TV market in Iowa, and I'm sure the Hawkeyes already deliver that one pretty well. Omaha ranks slightly lower at No. 76, and Nebraska is the smallest state in the Big 12 by population with about 1.8 million residents. I know the Huskers have somewhat of a national following, but those fans aren't sufficiently concentrated anywhere to deliver another TV market.
With respect to Texas, geography concerns and regional pride really get in the way. Austin is pretty far south in Texas, and in case you had forgotten, Texas is really big. It's a long way from Austin to all those other "Not Texas" states, especially Pennsylvania, Ohio and Michigan. Even with a mammoth budget, that's still a drain on travel costs for the non-revenue sports. Again, I wouldn't rule out Texas, but this would be such a leap for such a conservative conference that I'll wait to discuss this at greater length until I hear more concrete talk that the Big 10 is interested in the Longhorns.
Thus concludes Part I. Stay tuned for Part II, where we'll discuss Notre Dame, what the Big 12 can and should do to try and keep Missouri, whether this is a conspiracy by the Big 10, the amorphous concepts like "ties" and "nostalgia" and "fan sentiment," and what this could mean for K-State.
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Interesting that you included Texas,
no way do I see them leaving the throne of the Big 12 to share the throne with Michigan and Ohio State.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Texas is a non-starter for us
They’re too far away. Do you think they want to trade playing Oklahoma for Ohio State? Texas A&M for Michigan?
by LincolnParkWildcat on Dec 19, 2009 2:48 PM CST up reply actions
Pick us, pick us.
We’ll never get a fair shake in this league anyway. NU will go to the Big 10 just to get away from the Big Texas Conf … er, um. Big 12 Conference.
by hskr4ever on Dec 19, 2009 10:59 PM CST up reply actions
Direct documentation on the formation of the Big 12
“Officials of the new league were quickly saddled with two contentious issues: initial eligibility for athletes and arrangements for a football championship game.
The SWC expatriates wanted entrance requirements that were stiffer than those mandated by the NCAA. Nebraska, sustained through the years by more lenient standards, objected.
(snip)
In December of 1995, 10 months before the first Big 12 football game, the league’s school presidents agreed to allow each Big 12 school to admit two male and two female partial qualifiers each season. Still, Nebraska officials wanted to delay implementation. League presidents voted 11-1 to put the rules into immediate effect.
That was the second major defeat for Nebraska.
(snip)
In the summer of 1995, league presidents, warmed by the prospect of a title game providing another $10 million in revenue, voted 11-1 to put in a championship game.
Nebraska officials also blamed UT for the league’s choice of Dallas as the site for league headquarters, a decision that dislodged the conference from its old Big Eight base in Kansas City. Adding to the early acrimony was the league’s choice of Hatchell as the Big 12’s first commissioner, another decision driven by Texas schools.”
by hskr4ever on Dec 19, 2009 11:19 PM CST up reply actions
Nobody cares about grievances from 1996 or whining about the championship game
The simple fact is that Nebraska has made more money off this silly system than any school other than Oklahoma and Texas.
Give me a freakin’ break. You’re right: You don’t get a fair shake in this league. You get a completely unfair financial advantage that you still can’t convert into wins against South teams when it matters.
Go ahead, go to the freakin’ Big Ten, if they even would have you. Watch your cash windfall dry up as you become merely one of 12 mediocre teams. I’ll LMAO the whole goddamn time.
You've brought up these numbers before and I'm still questioning Nebraska
You make 11-1 sound like you’re the ones that are right – that everyone in the conference is out to get you. Seriously? Everytime you bring up 11-1 issues, it just proves how irrational your officials have voted.
11-1 on a conference championship. Please tell why in the hell anyone would vote against it? So you don’t like the extra revenue? I find it odd that you mention this while the whole premise of the post is that another major conference is looking to expand so that they CAN have a conference championship. Then why would you want to join the Big 10? Sounds like you’re contradicting yourself a little there.
11-1 on stiffer entrance requirements. So is that why Nebraska’s last undisputed national championship was in 1995? You have a problem with a conference trying to instill academic values into their athletics? Then why would you want to join the Big 10? Sounds like you’re contradicting yourself a little there.
Introducing the new 2008 Big 12 Football Champions: OU, UT*, TT*, and MU*!
Now Introducing the new 2009 Big 12 Baseball Tournament Champions: UT, KSU*, BU*, and MU*!
by mystman995 on Dec 20, 2009 10:59 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
And you're 1-2 in them. So?
The bottom line is that we lost a chance in 1996 to play for the national championship and Texas almost lost a chance this year. That’s why. Having to play another good team to reach the national championship game hurts the conference.
BTW, originally there were two teams that were against the CCG. But in Texas lapdog fashion, the other changed its mind.
That other team … Kansas State.
by hskr4ever on Dec 20, 2009 5:14 PM CST up reply actions
So you'll jump to the Big 10 for what reason?
(Which was the original point I was trying to make)
Introducing the new 2008 Big 12 Football Champions: OU, UT*, TT*, and MU*!
Now Introducing the new 2009 Big 12 Baseball Tournament Champions: UT, KSU*, BU*, and MU*!
To get away from Texas
and from the other Big 8 teams that we THOUGHT were our allies.
by hskr4ever on Dec 20, 2009 9:13 PM CST up reply actions
Right...
to the conference, in at least your arguments, that also would vote against you on those points.
22-1! Everybody’s against Nebraska!
Introducing the new 2008 Big 12 Football Champions: OU, UT*, TT*, and MU*!
Now Introducing the new 2009 Big 12 Baseball Tournament Champions: UT, KSU*, BU*, and MU*!
"Everybody’s against Nebraska!"
About time you admit it.
by hskr4ever on Dec 21, 2009 1:25 AM CST up reply actions
You forgot one
We would have played for the national title in 1998 if there hadn’t been a CCG. Despite being directly affected by it, we’re not the ones complaining about it. The Big 12 already lags behind the other major conferences in revenue, so we’d be morons to get rid of the CCG out of some fear that an upset there could knock a team out of the national title race. Frankly, that’s a win-win situation. If the favorite wins, we have a team in the title game. If the favorite loses, we put two teams in BCS games and take home a bigger payday.
Regarding your comment below about how Nebraska shouldn’t have to bow down to anyone, remember that pride goeth before a fall. Whether you want to believe it or not, Nebraska has no bargaining power. Your best TV market is not even in the top 50 nationally, and your “tradition” means precisely dick to the networks today. So if you want to stand up to Texas because your pride requires you to do so, just remember that Nebraska needs Texas in the Big 12 a lot more than Texas needs Nebraska or the Big 12.
We'll carry the banner high!
Bring On The Cats
by TB on Dec 20, 2009 5:59 PM CST up reply actions
“We would have played for the national title in 1998 if there hadn’t been a CCG.”
—You’re correct. I forgot about that one.
“Despite being directly affected by it, we’re not the ones complaining about it.”
—You should have. It knocked you all the way down to the Alamo Bowl.
“Frankly, that’s a win-win situation. If the favorite wins, we have a team in the title game. If the favorite loses, we put two teams in BCS games and take home a bigger payday.”
—To me, having a team lose out on a chance to play for a national title is NOT a win.
“….your "tradition" means precisely dick to the networks today.”
—Really? Is that why we’re on ABC or ESPN nearly every week whenever we play even a halfway meaningful game, when we play a name school or when we show ANY sign of a pulse? We’ve been on the two major networks way more than the other Big 12 North schools, and if we are able to get back in the Top 10, we’ll be on every week. Think they do that with Cincinnati or TCU?
See, this is the whole problem with K-State, Kansas, Missouri, Iowa State and Colorado. They are so jealous of what NU has accomplished over the years, they can’t stand it. If Texas dominates, no big deal. But if Nebraska wins anything major, it’s “why can’t that be us? Why does it have to be Nebraska?” Then you come up with all kinds of excuses — playing thugs, county scholarships, etc. etc. etc. You’ve never wanted to give us our due for ANYTHING. With the Big 12, you had a chance to eventually put us in a our place. And that’s what you did.
by hskr4ever on Dec 20, 2009 6:15 PM CST up reply actions
If we're talking specifics here
To me, having a team lose out on a chance to play for a national title is NOT a win.
For the good of the conference (which you are so blatantly ignoring) yes it is better. More money towards the conference will help every team. This helps out the smaller schools towards getting better. This makes the CONFERENCE better.
Think they do that with Cincinnati or TCU?
Funny you should mention that…
Nebraska: ABC – 5 games (VT, TT, OU, KU, CU) ESPN Networks – 2 (MU, KSU) for a grand total of 7 games!
Cinncinati: ABC – 3 games (Uconn, ILL, PITT), ESPN Networks – 5 (Rutgers, USF, UL, Syr, West Virg) for a grand total of 8 games!
And another thing to note, ABC broadcasts regionally coverage. More people are able to watch the ESPN games because one game shows at a time.
Introducing the new 2008 Big 12 Football Champions: OU, UT*, TT*, and MU*!
Now Introducing the new 2009 Big 12 Baseball Tournament Champions: UT, KSU*, BU*, and MU*!
Because 11-1 shows two things.
It shows how much you guys were willing to do anything to get Texas in the league — Remember, they threatened to go to the Pac-10 if they didn’t get their way on every single issue — and it shows how jealous you were of Nebraska and its success.
“11-1 on a conference championship.” — See below. Basically it puts another obstacle in front of a team that has a chance at a national championship. It burned the conference in 1996, almost burned the conference in 2003 and almost did so again this year.
“11-1 on stiffer entrance requirements.” — Being a non-qualifier does not neccessarily mean that a given student-athlete can’t function in college. It may mean they were a little immature in high school or maybe the high school wasn’t very good. I’ve seen people who scored in single digits in their ACT who have done very well in college. And at schools other than Nebraska. But Texas didn’t want it, so it was voted down. Of course.
Hey, if you want to stick your heads in the sand and pretend this is a fair and balanced conference, check out what other people are saying. It’s not just me.
—http://www.cornnation.com/2009/12/20/1209485/once-is-an-accident-twice-is
—The first two comments above
“Interesting that you included Texas,
no way do I see them leaving the throne of the Big 12 to share the throne with Michigan and Ohio State.”
by Warden11 on Dec 19, 2009 7:19 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
“Especially when…
… they already have this conference by the balls.
”http://www.RockMNation.com" target="_blank">http://www.RockMNation.com
Follow RMN on Twitter!
by RPT on Dec 19, 2009 7:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, if you want to continue to be Texas’ lapdog, that’s fine with me. Just don’t expect Nebraska to want to do the same.
Fourth all-time in wins, eighth all-time in winning percentage, five national championships, we shouldn’t have to bow down to anybody.
by hskr4ever on Dec 20, 2009 5:33 PM CST up reply actions
Oh, and by the way
Doesn’t this sound like a team that gives a damn about the rest of the conference:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/2008-09-04-texas-television_N.htm
by hskr4ever on Dec 20, 2009 5:36 PM CST up reply actions
Absolutely Not
Texas has been exploring options for the past 1½ years, Plonsky says, moving more aggressively on the idea of its own sports channel after the Big 12 Conference opted in the spring of 2007 not to create its own Big Ten-style network. That left more sports programming in the hands of member schools.
Sounds like a good idea to me. Why not reach out to the millions of Texas fans in the state? I’m pretty sure every school would do this if it were financially feasible. In states like Nebraska and Kansas, it’s not.
Introducing the new 2008 Big 12 Football Champions: OU, UT*, TT*, and MU*!
Now Introducing the new 2009 Big 12 Baseball Tournament Champions: UT, KSU*, BU*, and MU*!
What?
You whine to us about not voting the rest of the conference a bigger TV share, but you don’t have any problem with Texas going off on its own and creating an even bigger gap between itself and the rest of the league in terms of revenue?
Lap – dog
by hskr4ever on Dec 20, 2009 5:57 PM CST up reply actions
Now you're just being ridiculous
KU has its own TV network to broadcast its games that aren’t picked up by any other outlet. Does that mean it’s not a team player?
We'll carry the banner high!
Bring On The Cats
by TB on Dec 20, 2009 5:59 PM CST up reply actions
TV
It sounds to me like Texas wanted to do a conference channel together. When that was shot down, and only then, they decided to start their own channel.
by Texas Wahoo on Dec 20, 2009 9:36 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Who's saying that we think we should give in to Texas?
Hey, if you want to stick your heads in the sand and pretend this is a fair and balanced conference, check out what other people are saying. It’s not just me.
Most of us arguing against you are going at YOUR arguments and the conspiracy connotations behind it. TB has written many posts about the tyranny that is Texas. Nobody on this site has said anything about caving into Texas’ opinions.
YOU’RE the one bringing the 11-1 conspiracy and blatant arrogance towards the rest of us. We are talking about the whole conference here – with multiple sports and how the effect of Mizzou leaving would be bad for the conference. Who’s the irrational one here?
and it shows how jealous you were of Nebraska and its success.
we shouldn’t have to bow down to anybody.
Sounds like you’re the one who is jealous.
Introducing the new 2008 Big 12 Football Champions: OU, UT*, TT*, and MU*!
Now Introducing the new 2009 Big 12 Baseball Tournament Champions: UT, KSU*, BU*, and MU*!
Other sports
“We are talking about the whole conference here – with multiple sports … "
I couldn’t care less about the other sports. If I could — and there are many other Husker fans who agree with me — if we could, we would take last-place finishes in every single other sport in return for guaranteed top-5 national finishes in football.
by hskr4ever on Dec 20, 2009 7:05 PM CST up reply actions
But you can't, so too bad.
I’m not going to continue to address your ridiculous and redundant arguments. If you want to cry about Texas, start your own blog or go over to Corn Nation and the conspiracy theory posts over there. This post was supposed to be a serious discussion, without pride and prejudice, about what Big 10 expansion means if that conference snags Missouri.
You’ve managed to single-handedly turn it into a bitch-fest about Texas. Assuredly, I’m no fan of Texas, and you can read through the archives to find the many instance where I’ve aired my grievances with the school in Austin.
We'll carry the banner high!
Bring On The Cats
Yeah, whatever ... traitor
“By now, y’all are probably really getting sick of the K-State fan coming over here and talking about your recruits, but I had to share this one with you. Nebraska OL commit Andrew Rodriguez, from my hometown of Aurora, Nebraska, was chosen to play in the Army All-America Bowl in San Antonio.”
by hskr4ever on Dec 21, 2009 1:38 AM CST up reply actions
Give me one good reason why I shouldn't delete this post
Remember those terms of membership you agreed to when you signed up for this site?
Yeah, you just violated them. Big time.
Do whatever you want
I’m out of here. I’m sick of you people.
by hskr4ever on Dec 21, 2009 9:05 AM CST up reply actions
Throne or not...
…they would receive a lot more money each year in the Big 10. Obviously there are other factors, but money is mighty important to Texas.
We'll carry the banner high!
Bring On The Cats
by TB on Dec 19, 2009 3:57 PM CST up reply actions
More regarding Houston, and others
because I’ve been arguing that one with someone somewhere else:
Houston is a commuter school. That’s not a knock on the school itself, and in fact it’s often rated as the #1 commuter school in the country, academically. (They’re still a tier 4 school in USN&WR, though, which makes the “let’s be tier 1” thing sadly poignant.)
But… it’s a commuter school, its campus facilities related to athletics are both poor and in an unpleasant area, and even people who went to Houston and are proud of it admit they’ve got no “school spirit” to speak of. Why’s that last one important?
The only reason to even consider Houston is to “add” the Houston market to the Big 12, which people mistakenly believe belongs to CUSA. It does not; Texas and A&M fans easily outnumber Rice and Houston fans in the Houston area. Yeah, Houston’s highlights precede those of the Horns and Aggies on Houston local sportscasts. But the point is that the Horns and Aggies highlights are always on.
I know we care less about academics in the Big 12 than the Big 10 or Pac 10 do (although it should be noted that half of the Big 12 does belong to the AAU), but that doesn’t imply we don’t care. In which case, to be perfectly blunt about it, Rice would be a better fit than Houston. We don’t have our Vanderbilt/Duke/Northwestern/Stanford, and Rice would supply that (plus a pretty damn good baseball program). That said, I wouldn’t exactly be lobbying for Rice either, because they bring nothing else to the table (and, in fact, explored the possibility of moving to Division III not long ago).
Arkansas would bring the NWA market in addition to Little Rock, and I don’t think people realize just how big the Bentonville/Rogers/Springdale/Fayetteville “metroplex” has gotten. The level of Arkansas support in the Joplin/Neosho area and around Grand Lake in Oklahoma can’t be discounted either, and you also cut into the Arkansas side of the Memphis market — or, more to the point, you give Memphis systems a justification to carry Big 12 material. Still doesn’t replace Missouri, but it’s not as bad a tradeoff as “Little Rock” makes it seem.
Utah and BYU… they’d be nice adds, but only if you get them both so they can be travel partners, I think (which would require losing two schools or deciding to expand to 14). New Mexico is intriguing as well; they’d form a natural rivalry with Tech, and NM is becoming a minor national recruiting hotbed of late.
This space for rent.
In the interest of full disclosure...
…I’m an alum of the University of Houston Law Center.
We'll carry the banner high!
Bring On The Cats
by TB on Dec 19, 2009 3:15 PM CST up reply actions
Houston
I’m also pretty sure Texas’ refusal to play UH has nothing to do with Penders, dispite what he seems to think. It has a lot more to do with their refusal to move the last football game to Reliant/Astrodome/Rice Stadium – all of which hold twice what UH does. Instead UH decided to add temporary bleechers for all of the Texas fans. The bleechers were declared unsafe on the day of the game, and the Texas fans with tickets were told to watch the game on TVs. That’s why Texas plays rice almost every year now.
by Texas Wahoo on Dec 20, 2009 12:07 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Wow, that's actually pretty clever
Ghetto, but clever.
KU should try something like that when all the Huskers come to town.
The only way the Big 12 should accept Colorado State
is that if they get New Belgium to sponsor (at discounted prices of course) the beer sales (and allowing the sale of alcohol at the stadiums) for every Big 12 team. Fort Collins, we need this….
Introducing the new 2008 Big 12 Football Champions: OU, UT*, TT*, and MU*!
Now Introducing the new 2009 Big 12 Baseball Tournament Champions: UT, KSU*, BU*, and MU*!
by mystman995 on Dec 19, 2009 11:23 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
The Mizzou Gov is running his mouth about being stuck in the Big 12 with all of us intellectual inferiors:
“I’m not going to say anything bad about the Big 12, but when you compare Oklahoma State to Northwestern, when you compare Texas Tech to Wisconsin, I mean, you begin looking at educational possibilities that are worth looking at,”
Mizzou can’t leave fast enough to suit me. And they can take their hillbilly dollars with them.
I tried to be as diplomatic as possible over at DTN
Where I said this:
Nixon really shouldn’t have said that.
I’m all for the general point he was trying to make, that (historically) the perception of academics in the Big Ten is generally perceived to be amongst the highest in the country. Don’t get me wrong, I agree with Seth here that education is relative, and each school’s own mission is unique, a fact that often doesn’t get treated with the respect it deserves. But, a lot of times, in education like in college football, perception IS reality, for better or worse. If people think you’re a better school, you start to reap the rewards. The Big Ten could do that for Mizzou, so his point is well taken in that regard.
But there was absolutely NO need to call out any schools in the Big 12. It devalued the point he was actually trying to make.
I should add, though, that you can’t really dispute the Big Ten’s academic standing. There’s absolutely no excuse for Nixon taking a shot at any Big 12 schools, but the point here has been completely missed. The academic opportunities that would be afforded Mizzou upon acceptance into the CIC are far beyond anything that the Big 12 might offer. I hate to defend Nixon for what was clearly a mistake, but I don’t think his point was to insinuate “intellectual inferiors” or claim Mizzou is superior as much as highlight the incredible amount of opportunity for advancement that would be offered by a move.
If it comes down to academics, you can bet MU will take its “hillbilly dollars” and run. It’ll probably take its hillbilly St. Louis market as well. Hopefully the urban West Texas market is prepared to compensate for its absence. Good day, sir.
While what Nixon said...
…is true from a standpoint of academic rankings, it just didn’t need to be said. It does no good to cause hard feelings like that.
But, hard feelings or not, a Missouri-less Big 12 is a weaker Big 12, no matter who the replacement is. A weaker Big 12 means less chance at a big TV contract the next time around, and that means less money in Texas Tech’s bank account.
We'll carry the banner high!
Bring On The Cats
by TB on Dec 19, 2009 4:03 PM CST up reply actions
Eastern markets for B10
I’m no expert, but from what I’ve heard here in Buckeye Land, the B10 would like an eastern partner for Penn St and the chance to reach more eastern TV markets. That would bring up Pitt, Syracuse, Rutgers or Maryland. I think Mizzou is still down the list a ways for the B10. My 2 cents…
That's also a possibility...
…although I chose not to discuss it because it likely would have little effect on the Big 12.
Pitt seems like a natural fit, with solid academics and athletics. With Penn State already in Pennsylvania, it doesn’t really bring a new TV market, though. Also, while football would be the primary athletic force, it would be hard to leave the Big East in basketball.
Syracuse would offer more in the way of new TVs, but that would stretch the Big 10’s geography in a way that Missouri wouldn’t. Granted, it wouldn’t be as drastic as Texas, but there hasn’t been much chatter about UT yet.
Rutgers and Maryland…eh. I don’t know what to say. I can understand the desire to reach New York City, but I’m not sure Rutgers really does that for you. Maryland would bring in a good chunk of Washington, D.C. Like Missouri with respect to rivalries, you have to wonder if Maryland would leave the ACC and UNC/Duke behind.
We'll carry the banner high!
Bring On The Cats
by TB on Dec 19, 2009 5:25 PM CST up reply actions
Maryland
Having gone to UVA for grad school and having lived in DC for over a year now, I don’t think Maryland would consider leaving the ACC for the Big Ten. Too many rivalries, and Maryland seems to fit in the ACC a lot better.
by Texas Wahoo on Dec 20, 2009 12:00 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Losing Mizzou
If the Big 12 loses Mizzou, it would definitely be a blow. However, I think it would be more of a blow in reputation than anything. Would losing the St Louis market really affect our next TV deal by that much? The Big 12 isn’t getting an SEC deal anyway. We’ll be fighting with the Pac 10 and ACC, just like always. It won’t hurt the academic standing of the conference because Mizzou is right around the conference average, besides their famous journalism program. Unlike the Big Ten, the Big 12 doesn’t really affect academics for most of the member schools. I think losing Mizzou would mainly hurt because it will look like teams are fleeing for “better” conferences. Which is why I think we would have to go after Arkansas to save face. No one else is considered on par with Mizzou in the mind of the general public.
I think the biggest problem with losing Mizzou might be what it says about the long-term viability of the conference. Will we be forever fearing Big Ten and SEC expansion? Is the conference really so fragmented that none of the teams feel tied to the conference? Perhaps it would just be a sign that a 10+ year experiment of schools that don’t have too much in common is failing. The thing that the Big Ten and SEC have in common is that most of their schools are similarly size, have similar academic profiles, etc. The Big 12 may just be too diverse.
by Texas Wahoo on Dec 20, 2009 12:26 AM CST via mobile reply actions
Those are good...
…and scary, points.
But I think losing Missouri is a blow to more than reputation. Look at each Big 12 school. Texas is clearly the most important in terms of TV markets and exposure for the conference. Texas A&M and Oklahoma are pretty important, but Missouri ranks right up there with them. For a conference already thin on TV markets, losing St. Louis (the fourth-largest market in the conference) would be a huge blow in the next round of negotiations. While K-State and KU probably still carry Kansas City pretty well, the loss there would be significant as well.
At this point, only the Big 10 and the Pac-10 worry me. Those are the only conferences that are short of the 12 teams necessary for a conference championship game. Texas has long made it abundantly clear that it wants nothing to do with the SEC, and as long as Texas is in the conference, the loss of A&M isn’t that worrisome (not that I think the Texas Legislature would ever let them split up, but that’s another issue). Now, if we start hearing that the Big 10 is interested in Missouri, and the Pac-10 is interested in Texas and Colorado, then I’ll be really, really worried. Until then, I think the biggest threat to the Big 12 is losing Missouri.
We'll carry the banner high!
Bring On The Cats
by TB on Dec 20, 2009 2:02 AM CST up reply actions
+1
There’s no incentive under the current system to expand beyond the bare minimum of 12 in football.
And any conference that does (cough*MAC) is sorta insane.
I guess I don't really know what the TV channels care about.
I know St Louis is a major market, but how important is that? Do other Big XII games get much higher ratings in St Louis because Mizzou is in the Big XII. Mizzou isn’t exactly on National TV a lot. Does a Texas A&M / Nebraska game get high ratings in St Louis now? Is the worry that St Louis will start watching Penn State Minnesota instead if Mizzou joins the Big Ten?
If we have to negotiate without Mizzou, how much TV money will it cost us per school? I’m not very familiar with how these things work. The Pac 10 has amazing TV markets, but their TV deal is even worse than ours.
Those are all important questions...
…that I don’t have an answer for. I wish I knew more about the ins-and-outs of TV, but all I can really do is speak in terms of markets and potential share.
I’m guessing that if Mizzou was in the Big 10, its fans would be more likely to watch a Penn State/Minnesota game than a Texas A&M/Nebraska game, simply because it would have conference implications. I watch almost every Big 12 game that’s on TV, but I very rarely watch SEC, Big 10, or Pac-10 games.
As far as the costs, equal revenue sharing would mean about $2 million less per year for Texas under the current structure. As you and I have discussed in the past, UT isn’t willing to give that up. But if we were to land a better TV contract or find additional revenue streams, UT may be willing to consider revenue sharing because an equal share of a bigger pie still would be more lucrative. Just using hypothetical numbers, what if a new TV deal or a Big 12 Network meant $3-4 million more per school if shared equally? That would more than offset what Texas would give up under the current deal. Again, though, I’m really just speculating here.
With regard to the Pac-10, I have no idea. The fact that they don’t have a huge TV deal boggles my mind considering they have all the California markets, plus Phoenix, Seattle, Portland and others.
We'll carry the banner high!
Bring On The Cats
by TB on Dec 20, 2009 3:39 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, but they really don't care about sports too much out there
And when they do, it’s mostly pro sports. Weirdos.
But what if Mizzou would make our new TV deal only $0.5 million more per school?
Would that be in Nebraska or A&Ms interests? I would be really surprised if ABC/Fox Sports were willing to pay 36-48 million more just because we have Mizzou than if we had any of the other teams you mentioned. Especially because it seems like that is more than a third of our total TV deal right now.
My thinking
is that instead of just thinking in terms of football, what we ought to be doing is leveraging a new comprehensive basketball contract in the wake of the upcoming season.
The Big 12 is poised for historical greatness in 2010. If we can find some way to get a long-term deal with ESPN, that would be really helpful. Mizzou helps in that regard because they’re coming off an Elite Eight appearance and have a Top 15 class coming in next season.
I know basketball isn’t the money-maker football is, but every little bit helps. And the big schools still could keep their football revenue to themselves. Think of an egalitarian basketball contract as a sort of trial balloon for the full-fledged thing.
That might be enough of a concession for Mizzou to stay on board and see how it works.
And the Huskers would have no reason to complain. As it is, they don’t contribute shit to the conference’s basketball profile, so they can take a turn being the ones on Big 12 welfare since they’re so high-and-mighty about football revenue sharing being “socialism.”
Part I
I’m a graduate of Minnesota and live in the Twin Cities. First, I want to compliment you on a well-written and concise discussion. It is almost as if you are a graduate of the University of Missouri School of Journalism. I know about this school because my son searched the country before deciding to attend Mizzou and he graduated and now works in Kansas City. He has nothing but great memories of Missouri and his experiences there. And just as I am a Gopher to the core, he bleeds Black and Gold for the Tigers.
Back to Part I . . . have you ever met anyone from Notre Dame? Arrogant doesn’t begin to describe them. They have their own deal with NBC that is more lucrative than being in the Big 10, so they will never be anything but independent. In football, they play as many as 4 games each season against Big 10 teams and generally get the snot kicked out of themselves, so if anything, they are not going to add games against Penn State, Wisconsin and Iowa to their existing schedule. Can you imagine how the cash flow from drunken alums would dry up on the day after Notre Dame is beat by Northwestern or Minnesota in football? Ain’t gonna happen. I think as you mention, Texas would be the first choice, but I agree that is not going to happen. Rutgers has the potential to bring in the New York TV market and also appease Penn State. So Rutgers will be given a serious look. But finally, they will settle on Missouri. The only team in the Big 10 that will vote against this is Illinois who now has a decent share of the St. Louis TV market.
I have to start by saying that was a very well written article. Excellent job!
As an Illinois alumni and very avid Big Ten fan, I’m sure you can all understand the excitement some of us have with regards to this expansion.
I think Mizzou would be a good addition to the Big Ten. Good, but not great. A lot of the Big Ten folks are a bit concerned about the level of academics and general lack of enthusiasm people seem to have about Mizzou sports. My understanding is that generally the games don’t sell out, and there isn’t really a buzz for their sports. Which seems like a shame to me, I know the last few years they have had pretty decent to pretty good football teams. All of us in Champaign are familiar with our annual "drive to St. Louis to get our teeth knocked in" game at the start of each football season.
There are several teams in the "talks" that won’t cut it: Louisville, Cincinnati, and Memphis. These schools just don’t have the academics that will be required of whatever schools join.
As far as realistic choices go, I think Pitt and Mizzou are pretty solid choices.
I have a few more points / questions to bring up.
Notre Dame. Specifically to the guy above me, and anyone else that is interested. I wouldn’t count them out. I didn’t realize this, but my fiancé (Notre Dame alum, both of her parents worked there, Dad still does, told me she would kill herself if Notre Dame joined the Big Ten), informed me about how Notre Dame’s faculty really wants to join the Big Ten. They wanted to in 99, and they still want to today. Why? CIC. They stand to gain money from football contracts (ND’s NBC contract is $15 Million per year, compared to the $21 million for each school in the Big Ten), as well as the CIC.
Also, I didn’t realize how little money Texas gets each year compared to Big Ten schools. 13 Million vs 21 million? Plus being a part of the CIC?
From my research today at work, pretty much every school that the Big Ten would consider (all of them?) would benefit in the form of a substantial increase in income as well as being able to join the CIC.
I know it’s a long shot, but my personal choice is Texas. I genuinely believe that both sides would gain a lot from the deal. I realize that we are a pretty "conservative" conference, in more ways than one. But if you are going to do something, do it well, or not at all. We won’t add a 12th just for a conference championship game if it means adding a school like Louisville. Prestige and tradition are pretty important here too.
Thanks, both of you
It will be interesting to see how it plays out.
We'll carry the banner high!
Bring On The Cats
by TB on Dec 22, 2009 9:14 PM CST up reply actions
The Big 12 will find away.
First, let me just say that was an extremely well thought out and well written essay and a very good read. However, I do feel that if Mizzou is to leave, it would not be an unmitigated disaster you portray. You pointed out that one the most important factors to keeping Mizzou is that they have large television markets. And while this is an important factor, it is over blown. If playing in a state with a big television market, then The Big East would be the most important conference in all of College Football. Syracuse plays in New York, the biggest television market. I live in New York, and the “Cuse” football team could be swallowed into the “Land of the Lost” and no one but the players and coaches family would cared. They also got Rutgers in New Jersey, and while they have been good for a couple of times. Trust me, they too can join Cuse, and they even have a team in Florida (SFU), and they can also go along on the trip. Add a team in Pennsylvania (Pitt) and Ohio. Yet, it took an undefeated season from Cinci to matter. The point is, as important as geography is, in terms of television market. The most important thing a team can bring to a televised game is the number in front of the team’s name and the lower the number the better. If Nebraska and Colorado can both rise to power, and it stops being the Texas and Oklahoma conference. Speaking of Oklahoma, they had plenty nationally televised games last season. Oklahoma doesn’t strike me a large market. But if you build a power house with a legacy. People will watch. If Oregon keeps playing at a high level, and goes on to become a power house, they too should draw the audience.
There is no reason why the Big 12 should not be as important as any conference. Also, this things are cyclical. Everyone loves LSU in Louisiana because they are winning. Trust me I spent plenty of time there, if they were losing no one would care. Look at the “U” when the Canes are winning people in Miami watch, when they are bad they stop caring. Which brings me to the fact that teams in the Big 12 will always be loyal to their teams. Meaning they already bring a loyal fan base. And I would say the most loyal fan base of any conference.
SEC is the cat’s meow right now, but lets wait 5 seasons from now. Will they still be the be all end all conference that people seem to think they are?
Look at Norte Dame as you pointed out. They play in Indiana, how big can that market be. Put on a great team and the viewers will watch. So, I feel is far more important for teams in the Big 12 to play at a top notch than their placement in a map. Drop Baylor or Texas A&M and go for Utah or Boise State I say. Thank you for your time.
by TheIronHorseofDeath on Dec 28, 2009 8:37 PM CST reply actions












